[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by Kate Sharpley, May 30, 2017.

London Anarchist Bookfair
Start Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 10:00 AM
End Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 07:00 PM
Time Zone: Europe/London +01:00 BST

Location:
Park View School
West Green Road,
London N15 3QR

Posted By: Kate Sharpley

Confirmed Attendees: 0
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  1. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    There's certainly a spot of hesitation there
     
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Sweetcheeks doesn't insinuate stupidity, it isn't a personal attack, nor a criticism of your language or sentence formation: nor a change of subject.
     
    Nigel likes this.
  3. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Pickman's model Nice edit there, removing “I’ll Post as i see fit, my love" from your response to a woman telling you to stop calling her sweetcheecks because its a sexist patronising anti-woman cliche. Think better of that did you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    maomao, Dom Traynor and nyxx like this.
  4. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    do you want to know? i thought that being as i'd called her a liar and other people were also waiting for answers that i'd remove that to avoid going off on the tangent you wish to take us down. i also think that it is wicked of you to undermine poor thisweb by offering her your feeble support. she'll do better without it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
    Nigel likes this.
  5. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Very noble.
     
  6. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    yeh. let her alone, bimble. she deserves that at least.
     
  7. kenny g

    kenny g Totally Aware.

    TBH PM - if you wanted to avoid people going on pointless tangents you would have to remove 90% of your posts...
     
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    14.3% I think you'll find. There is some merit to the other tangents.
     
    Nigel, emanymton and kenny g like this.
  9. I have no idea what's going on. But it seems important x
     
    Nigel and Pickman's model like this.
  10. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Big barney at bookfair, people taking sides, new members from various povs join and are barracked: business as usual.
     
    Nigel and AverageJoe like this.
  11. gamerunknown

    gamerunknown Well-Known Member

    Well, snootily, sure, but there's plenty of reasons not to go to the local after a conference. Right at the top is that it'll be rammed, making it difficult to order and to hear each other. Other reasons could include loud music, price, not having desired drinks on top and so forth - not to mention beefs with other groups in attendance.

    The funniest thing about all of this is that the derisive term "identity politics" was probably first applied to people who prioritised feminist organising over workplace organising. Some of the essence of the debate is captured here. I don't have direct sources, but it's fairly simple to imagine how the conversations played out: in a post-revolutionary society, rape and abuse won't exist, so allying with bourgeois women to build or fund shelters is a form of class collaboration and thus reactionary (in fact, I've heard very similar statements at present). In fact, the quoted black feminist organisation used the term "biological essentialism" to decry the notion that men are innately oppressive, consigning it instead to a process of socialisation which occurs under capitalist, patriarchal society. Which segues into the next point: if gender based oppression is inevitable (and it's survived a change of mode of production!) and things like violence and empathy are determined by our chromosomes, then what I see as the end goals of feminism (an end to gender based oppression - a command of resources not dependent on genitalia, responsibility for raising children shared between adults) and socialism (free associations of equals for productive purposes) are impossible.

    Debate within London IWW ultimately culminated in a working group - London IWW already has a policy against transphobia which they decided they should uphold. Brighton SolFed signed the statement - 10 in favour, 2 against (or abstaining, I forget which).

    Met any trans people who call themselves "trans identifying" rather than that identify as a particular gender?

    Yeah, how much tolerance would you have for Troy Southgate questioning yours?

    This is particularly off kilter, given that Helen Steel was there representing the "Police Spies Out of Lives" campaign which aims for a legal case against the Police Spies infiltrating movements. Their website contains the rights on which their case is based.

    Well, their rates of being bullied, suicide and so forth are higher than the general population and their wages are lower. Little bit pedantic in that light.

    There's also far fewer trans men. Working Class History put out a bit about a 20th century trans man on twitter and the comments were pretty wild. They noted it was easier to identify as a male than be a lesbian in those times, which is a fair point. There's also the case of Victor Barker, which is a bit of a minefield.

    This is more or less the internalised transphobia position (or kapo phenomenon). It's possible to find plenty of examples of people who are willing to sacrifice any of their compatriots: Blaire White, Tiny Toese, Candace Owens.

    Yeah, pinnacle of anarchist organising this.

    Right, but the position of women in society has been transformed radically in the past few centuries thanks to industrialisation. If we had another social revolution, gender could cease to be nearly as pertinent (things like pregnancy would still need to be addressed).

    Discrimination lowers productivity. Two options: ban the particular characteristic (non-citizens) or protect it (gender reassignment).
     
  12. MrSpikey

    MrSpikey Well-Known Member

    Generally, people don't defend arguments they disagree with. Hope that helps.
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  13. Red Sky

    Red Sky It was like that when I got here.

    So "self hating" trans women. "Gender traitors" perhaps.
     
    Nigel and Pickman's model like this.
  14. gamerunknown

    gamerunknown Well-Known Member

    Ha
     
  15. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    You used patronizing sexist language. Its clear you aren't intent on debating the issues raised in the leaflet. I'm not hanging around this vampire castle, you've made it clear my opinions are worthless to you. So long.
     
    maomao likes this.
  16. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    No? Why don't you explain to everyone what you think it means then. I think its patronisng.
     
  17. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    Any six lines written by a man , you can use to hang him . Hesitation and editing is a product of my fear , in a world where no ones opinions count, except those best able to express and write them. This is why Boris Jonson and public schoolboys run the world. Because dicks like you think presentation, accuracy of the written word is more important than the meaning. You pretend its all about getting the facts correct, but really its just about making others feel small so you dont have to debate anything.
    It isnt a tangent though Pickman. Your attitude and language, like so many mens, is fundamentally at the route of this entire conversation and the battle women must face to be heard without being patronized, shouted down or beaten. A lot of men and transwomen don't get it, you are one of them, and yet you still don't know why. And thats the problem, you cant see yourself in the mirror.
     
  18. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh. And there was me thinking you weren't hanging round this vampire castle. I call all sorts of people, men women, transpeople and quite possibly people who fit into none of these categories sweetcheeks, sweetling, my lovely etc because - well spotted - I'm a patronising cunt. I accept what I am. Now, are you going to come out with these two points everyone's waiting on or are you as I suspect an empty vessel? My money's on the latter.
     
    Nigel and emanymton like this.
  19. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh. You love hanging round this vampire castle. I'm quite happy to debate with you but you seem less comfortable debating issues and far happier having a pop at me. Carry on, say I. Carry on
     
    Nigel likes this.
  20. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    I think you're probably the first person here to quote cardinal richelieu. But you're wrong bj etc run the world because they're the best able to express their opinions. If they were bj wouldn't have lost two jobs because of his lying - two newspaper jobs to boot. People like valerie salonas perfectly able to express their opinions at least as well as bj. But they don't have the ready access to the media or the friendship networks of auld etonians.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  21. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    *Thats your interpretation. Its dismissive . You are judging trans people as transphobic. Also the irony isnt lost on me that you think you can tell trans people that their identity isnt trans because they are transphobic.
    ** yeh it isnt, Im against prisons. But im against mixed prisons even more because misogyny and rape is rampant both in and out of prison. But particularly in it. If you are an anarchist you wouldn't support sex seperation at all, because you wouldnt back any policiy that allowed peopel to identify as a class 'woman' EXCEPT as a way to escape the immediate oppression of their lives. Like the way you use your birth certificate to get your railcard to get to the book fair or whatever so you can learn how to dismantle the state and its imposition of identities. Supporting the right to self identify with state oppressed woman is not the pinnacle of anarchy either. Presumably you see how its necessary for anarchist black men to identify as black, when they are fighting or testifying against violence from cops when facing prison? Under this system of oppression and racism, presumably you would not support the right of white men to identify as black men? If so why do you support the right of men to identify with those they oppress, women? After all not all white men like to oppress black men, but that doesn't make it ok to just identify as black does it? It would IF racism and misogyny didn't exist. It wouldn't matter much. But thats not the world we live in. And we don't live in a world where anarchists are free from the rules of state oppression.
     
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Are you in favour of mixed NHS wards?
     
  23. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    Oh gosh you didnt understand what I was saying. Im so sorry for being stupid. I should have said somethign like 'What do you disagree with and why.' But you know exactly what i meant. So dont bother. You just prefer to derail. 'Give me any three written sentences and I can use them to hang any man who wrote them'
     
    maomao likes this.
  24. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    I'm sorry? You have one line sentences talking about nothing. Using patronisng language and calling me 'sweetcheeks'. I've expressed argumenst and youve not engaged them. You are most definitely NOT happy to debate.
     
    maomao likes this.
  25. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh. So we're happy liars together then.
     
  26. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh stupid me this isn't debate it's a one sentence put down :rolleyes:
     
  27. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    I dont think thats how British culture works. The British love aristocracy. They look up to people who speak and write well. Look at the public backlash against russel brand. Paxman message was 'What gives you, a working clas cockney, the right to speak'. To this day Brand sis till held in contempt by the vast majority of the British public, including working class activists. Few barely know what he thinks or stands for. Because his class is undesirable, so must be his opinions. His class by the way is either wealthy upity twat who doesnt deserve his money (unlike the toffs who are seen as at least deserving because they speak well) or working class thicko. The British care only about language. Speak well and you will go a long long way, no matter what an asshole you are. This is consistent with 400 years of British history.
     
  28. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    Nope
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  29. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    yeah yeah. I get it. I am like a dog with a bone. And you love throwing them. This is techically debate. You win.
     
  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh you love the vampire castle. Who knows, tomorrow you might share the two points
     

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