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[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by Kate Sharpley, May 30, 2017.

London Anarchist Bookfair
Start Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 10:00 AM
End Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 07:00 PM
Time Zone: Europe/London +01:00 BST

Location:
Park View School
West Green Road,
London N15 3QR

Posted By: Kate Sharpley

Confirmed Attendees: 0
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  1. Sea Star

    Sea Star trans women are women; trans men are men

    In any other subject on U75 I notice that any assertions made are required to be backed up. I've seen people banned for putting up things that they've refused to back up.

    But on the subject of trans women there is no critical analysis. Any bullshit claims on here are lapped up by the many transphobic (yes, I will use that word for most of the people on this thread, including MadeinBedlham, Athos, Magnus McGinty and all) posters. I don't see any challenging the claim that trans women are as violent as men, which is in fact a lie, not backed up by any study. The one study I've seen quoted in fact says completely the opposite and you can read (above) where the author of the study states this clearly and unequivocally.

    So why all the lies? Why the failure to hold the bullshitters to account? You'd think if those who wish to destroy trans women had an argument you wouldn't have to lie, but you all do all the time!!

    If you want a debate, stop with the lies, the insinuations and the obvious hatred.

    I can't actually believe I'm back on here, but I had to say something, it's been nagging at me for ages now.
     
    nyxx likes this.
  2. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    Complaints about evidence based assertions are pretty ironic coming from you, especially when you then go on, yet again, to make evidence free assertions of transphobia against a number of posters.

    Your behaviour on these boards is a perfect illustration of the toxic influence of solopsistic ID politics which is undermining any genuine collective politics.
     
    mather, Nigel, campanula and 2 others like this.
  3. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    In the spirit of holding buillshitters to account...

    Your (evidence-free) post accusing me of having lapped up/failed to challenge bullshit claims (like the misinterpretation of the study of offending) is, in itself, demonstrably untrue. Quite the opposite happened, in fact; I explicitly challanged a poster's misuse of that study (on the 'perplexed' thread, as I've not been back on this thread since it was posted here).

    An apology for this lie (the latest in a series) would be welcome, please.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
    Nigel and MadeInBedlam like this.
  4. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    Oh look. Someone else with zero interest in anarchism has turned up to stick the boot in.
     
  5. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    As far as I can tell - given my repeated condemnation of the abuse of trans people, my clear position that trans people should be allowed to live full and authentic lives, my continued assurance that (for all practical purposes) I consider trans people to be the gender they believe themselves to be, my challanges to others who make transphobic arguments, the fact that I've never claimed that all trans women are autogyneohiles or rapists, and because I've never misgendered anyone - there is only one difference between us that could conceivably be the basis of your accusation of transphobia against me. That's my position that women ought to be free to discuss the issue of what it means to be a woman, without abuse or the fear of abuse.

    Please would you confirm whether you consider such a position to be transphobic, and why? Because it seems to me that you sling that slur around without any basis, as a weapon. Increasingly, people are realising that it's a dishonest tactic used by some TRAs to silence women and those who support their rights.

    If you don't consider that position transphobic, please would you either retract your smear, or provide anything you consider to be evidence for it?

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
    Nigel, thisweb, Plumdaff and 3 others like this.
  6. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    As far as I can tell, merely disagreeing with something can make you a transphobe. What a mess call out culture is.
     
    Nigel, TopCat, Jonti and 3 others like this.
  7. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Yeh. The point in para 1, can you back it up with examples?
     
    Nigel and MadeInBedlam like this.
  8. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam 'He bloody well thinks he's staff!'

    Your claim that I’m transphobic Sea Star - back it up or retract it.
     
    Nigel, thisweb, TopCat and 1 other person like this.
  9. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    They're not going to back up, retract it or, probably, refrain from making similar claims in the future, so while I understand you and Athos making that request, I fear you're wasting your time and risking derailing the thread further into the minutiae of which individuals they think are transphobic.
     
  10. chilango

    chilango *shrugs*

    Apologies Sea Star I've not been following the thread closely recently, but the poster (I won't tag or quote them directly at this point) who seems to have suggested
    joined on Monday and has only made 6 posts iirc. Time will tell what sort of of reception they get from Urban should they stick around, but I don't think that alone is a fair basis for calling other posters transphobic.
     
    Nigel likes this.
  11. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    Throwing the term about like this will just dilute any power they feel it carries.
     
  12. editor

    editor Taffus Maximus

    That's really not true at all, except under exceptional circumstances (usually legal).

    If we did ban people for not backing up their claims, we would have lost an awful lot of posters!
     
  13. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Also lies are her allegations of transphobia. Please would you ask her to provide evidence or retract them?
     
    MadeInBedlam likes this.
  14. Sea Star

    Sea Star trans women are women; trans men are men

    I won't retract. Editor will have to ban me first. I speak as I find. If you don't like it stop being transphobic.
     
  15. Sea Star

    Sea Star trans women are women; trans men are men

    conspiraloon - which is most of what this TERF nonsense is tbh.
     
  16. Magnus McGinty

    Magnus McGinty Wh♂️

    You won’t get away with saying words like ‘loon’ in call out idpol circles.

    If I wanted to be a dick I’d now start calling you ableist.
     
    Nigel and MadeInBedlam like this.
  17. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Won't retract. Can you post any evidence, instead, then?
     
  18. Sea Star

    Sea Star trans women are women; trans men are men

    fuck off
     
    Nigel and Magnus McGinty like this.
  19. Sea Star

    Sea Star trans women are women; trans men are men

    everything you have ever said to me is evidence.
     
  20. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam 'He bloody well thinks he's staff!'

    Lol. What an entitled wanker
     
    Nigel, maomao and Pickman's model like this.
  21. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    That's a 'no' then.
     
    MadeInBedlam likes this.
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    So unrepentant liar then
     
    Nigel and TopCat like this.
  23. chilango

    chilango *shrugs*

    Is any of this helping anyone?
     
    Celyn, bimble and Fozzie Bear like this.
  24. MadeInBedlam

    MadeInBedlam 'He bloody well thinks he's staff!'

    Yes.

    Sea Star gets to lash out and perform her chosen role as world’s most oppressed person ever

    Everyone else gets to see how hollow her accusations are
     
  25. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    Do you think it's helpful to anyone to allow Sea Star and a relative handful of other posters to continue to make unfounded allegations of this sort, over and over again without being pulled up on it, or do you think that we, as members of an online community, have some responsibility to challenge such allegations and demonstrate that we as a community are not prepared to tolerate their behaviour?

    Your previous post suggests
    It's clear to me (and I suspect many others here) that the poster in question isn't remotely interested in being fair, or honest in their dealings, so appeals to reasonableness are simply not going to work.
     
    Nigel, campanula and MadeInBedlam like this.
  26. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
    MadeInBedlam likes this.
  27. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    ok I could go back and forth on studies about this, but ive been there before, its like debating climate deniars. To be honest I can't really demonstrate better how a LOT of trans women ARE violent other than pointing to this web site: TERF is a slur which has an ever growing list of violent threatening tweets. Some of the things being said here made my blood curdle. They are terrifying for women who already suffer a persistent fear of male violence. The list of tweets is so long and cruel I couldn't get through them all. Now if you can find or compile a similar list of tweets from Radical Femists, then I'll eat my hat and apologize for being a liar or unable to read. Also, I note that the vast majority of these tweets , if not all of them are from trans identified males. Or transwomen, if you prefer. Not trans men. Theres a pattern if its m2f trans and not f2m trans that mostly behave this way, don't you accept? Also how many violent crimes, convictions have there been for trans men vs trans females? Can you name more than 2 cases of tranmen killing other women?

    terfisalsur.com
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
    Nigel likes this.
  28. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    Suppose for a minute that transwomen happend to be as violent as men, just supose, hypothetically, would you think TERFs have a case to exclude men from their spaces? Because if not then all this is irrelevent, and arguing studies is a waste of time. If however you agree that it would change your view on trans activism, then I will happily devote a time debating the studies with you. Otherwise do you see why its pointless arguing studies you dont even believe matter?
     
  29. thisweb

    thisweb Member

    I am new to this forum. I came from a link from another anarchist website discussing the book fair. I'm not transphobic (that feels like a slur), but I do often fear men, so who knows? does that make me manphobic? I dont think so. - i dont hate trans people or men - if that counts? I wouldn't use slurs against trans people and I support transwomens 'right' to think they are women. I dont support their desire to demand everyone else treat them as female in law. My question is simply: why on earth do people think transwomen ARN'T as violent as men? Can anyone site any evidence they are all gentle kind beings who wouldnt harm a soul. Excluding the elephant in the room - the fact violence from trans women (that we all saw) manged to close an entire bookfair down and next years as well. Its a sexist assumption to assume that changing your chosen identity automatically make you less violent. Are people saying transmen are more violent than transwomen? Or are they just saying most trans people arent violent? If so thats meaningless as it also applies to all men and women too. What I am talking about here is large minorities. Large minorities of men (I assume i need to provide evidence for violence in men right?) and large minorities of transwomen (see turfisaslur.com for tonnes of blood curdling evidence there) . Most transwomen, like men, I agree are unlikely to be violent against women. But the fear , perceived and actual, and real threat from large minorities of violent people, mostly men, but also transwomen matters. Thats why feminism exists and the debate shouldn't be shut down with 'transphobe'. Especially by violent means.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  30. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    I don't agree with the other posters who are mentioned, but Athos, in discussion after discussion on this you have consistantly defended the trans-exclusionary line. You have never really acknowledged that bigotry and prejudice may exist on that side, or that there has been a long running and virulent anti-trans campaign from a very small group of radical feminists that dates back nearly fifty years and which goes way beyond concerns about the proposed new laws. You have repeatedly portrayed trans-activists as violent and abusive based on a handful of people and one incident whilst ignoring or apologising for the violence and abuse that has come from the other side. You post incessently and aggresively on every discussion about trans-issues, despite seeming to admit you have no skin in this game personally, and you always take the anti-trans line on behalf of this subset of radical feminists, even if it is couched in your so-called support for trans-people. You have even adopted the lexicon of this group, calling them by their latest loaded moniker 'gender critical feminists' as if it is only possible to be critical of gender if you are trans-exclusionary - a gross insult by the way to all the feminists, such as Dworkin, who are both gender critical and supportive of trans-people.

    You have never once shown any empathy with what is at stake in this debate for transpeople, who mostly just want to be able to go to the toilet and access services if they need them like everyone else takes for granted. I don't know if you're transphobic but perhaps if you thought about some of this shit you wouldn't rub so many people up the wrong way who are genuinely and actively supportive of transpeople.
     

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