Sanctions on Israel - YES/NO

[nino_savatte]

you really think the US will let the UN impose sanctions on Israel?? Certainly you jest...

The UN has been sidelined and scuppered by both the US and Israel. Hence it's lack of efficacy.

There's only one solution: invade the US and Israel now and overthrow their right wing ideologues and warmongering scum!

 

[teqniq]

Sanctions, yes. Though if such an initiative were ever to be implemented it would have to be carefuly targetted against businesses/organisations that are linked to the government/military in one way or another.

 

[derf]

Nothing comes here from Israel so sod all chance of me buying anything anyway but sanctions would be pointless anyway while the US is funding them so heavily.

 

[Zachor]

Not in favour of boycotts in this situation. The situation is one that needs engagement not isolation. Isolating Israel may give the green light for right wing nutters who will feel that if the world is against them they might as well say 'fuck you' and 'do a Grozny' on Arab areas.

 

[teqniq]

Nothing comes here from Israel so sod all chance of me buying anything anyway but sanctions would be pointless anyway while the US is funding them so heavily.

Not entirely true If places like this were shut down it would surely have some appereciable effect?

 

[frogwoman]

No. Sanctions imposed by and in the interests of a ruling class are never the way out for the w/c of any state - unless the various states have suddenly developed a pro-working class agenda. Sanctions are the way in which external ruling classes attack the conditions of the w/c of another country(see the murderous sanctions on Iraq) in order to achieve certain ends - either to force the ruling class of that state into a certain specific course of action (i.e stopping an initiative that is damaging the interests of the wider ruling class) or to allow that same ruling class a scapegoat to blame its current problems on and to recompose their power around i.e to discipline the w/c) either way both ruling classes those applying the sanctions and those on the 'recieving end' make use of them to improve their own position in the concerned humanitarian stakes, or in any other way they can. Sanctions imposed by and in the interests of a ruling class are never the way out for the w/c of any state.

Also, anyone whose read Nitzan and Bichler's book (The global political economy of Istael) outlining the absolutely central role in regional accumulation that Israel plays today will be aware of how little this set up is likely to be challenged n any substantial manner by those benefiting from it - whilst it still pumps out the profits anyway. Not to rule out 'workers snactions' - or 'sanctions from below', despite their probably limited economic impact - not the point.

These are all very good points butchers, but what do you suggest can be done instead given, as you said, the limited effectiveness of "sanctions from below"? i agree that this discussion is largely hypothetical anyway ..

 

[frogwoman]

Sanctions, yes. Though if such an initiative were ever to be implemented it would have to be carefuly targetted against businesses/organisations that are linked to the government/military in one way or another.

well, yeah. i'm not in favour of the type of sanctions imposed on iraq/iran...

 

[ViolentPanda]

How come the israeli bodyguards weren't arrested for possessing firearms, or were they all here with diplomatic immunity or something. ?

Yep, they're usually papered as "security attaches" to the embassy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sanctions always look good "on paper", but can be just as hazardous to life as bombs and bullets, as the Iraqi public found out.

 

[frogwoman]

Sanctions always look good "on paper", but can be just as hazardous to life as bombs and bullets, as the Iraqi public found out.

yep.

 

[butchersapron]

These are all very good points butchers, but what do you suggest can be done instead given, as you said, the limited effectiveness of "sanctions from below"? i agree that this discussion is largely hypothetical anyway ..

Very little being brutally honest. The conflict isn't hinging on what 'we' do one way or another. We can carry on attempting to make the small from below pro-w/c non-sectarian initiatives aimed at putting people there in a better position - i think that's pretty much it. The problem is that depth of moral anger and disgust doesn't neccessarily equate to real effective useful intervention (apart from the political question odf what the content of that would be).

 

[Spion]

What's possible? Every dock worker and every road transport distribution centre worker and driver could refuse to move anything going to or from Israel

What's probable? Nothing unless people start to campaign for it

 

[Zachor]

What's possible? Every dock worker and every road transport distribution centre worker and driver could refuse to move anything going to or from Israel

What's probable? Nothing unless people start to campaign for it

In the current climate both economically and politically that will not happen. This subject doesn't have that sort of grip on peoples minds. Besides if you've got a job why lose it is what most people will say.

You might have more takers on getting workers onto boycotting the nations where our own clerical fash are getting support and training ie Pakistan and other similar nations.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's possible? Every dock worker and every road transport distribution centre worker and driver could refuse to move anything going to or from Israel

What's probable? Nothing unless people start to campaign for it

I've e-mailed a Wobbly mate in Seattle, to see if he knows whether the US dock unions there will be getting militant (they refused to load vessels destined for Israel in '06 and had an old Congressional act enforced on their arses so that scab and military labour could do the loading instead, IIRC).

 

[nino_savatte]

Not in favour of boycotts in this situation. The situation is one that needs engagement not isolation. Isolating Israel may give the green light for right wing nutters who will feel that if the world is against them they might as well say 'fuck you' and 'do a Grozny' on Arab areas.

You favour inaction because any action would affect your adopted homeland and would contradict your deeply held position. "Isolating Israel may give the green light for right wing nutters" is another way of conflating critics of Israel with fash...well done.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Would UN sanctions on the state of israel be a good idea in terms of getting it to stop its massacres, or might it make the situation worse? i am in favour of boycott, divestement and sanctions as people might have gathered from my posts, im sure someone will be along in a minute to tell me about how the UN is ineffective or about how solutions imposed by states are illegitimate or something like that, but I'm not sure what other options there could be. a consumer led boycott is one thing, but how many stores will it affect in the long term and how many customers will you get to take part in the boycott?

i am genuinely interested, as i said i am in favour of sanctions, as long as they dont affect things like medicines etc, but if there are other options that anyone thinks would be better i would be interested to hear about them.

What would you do about Hamas, the organization that would rather than not see you, a Jew, dead instead of alive?

 

[nino_savatte]

What would you do about Hamas, the organization that would rather than not see you, a Jew, dead instead of alive?

That's it, conflate Israelis with Jews. You're rather fond of using emotional blackmail, aren't you? Only in this case, it won't work.

You like apologising for mass murder, don't you, Johnny?

 

[Zachor]

I've e-mailed a Wobbly mate in Seattle, to see if he knows whether the US dock unions there will be getting militant (they refused to load vessels destined for Israel in '06 and had an old Congressional act enforced on their arses so that scab and military labour could do the loading instead, IIRC).

Blocking Israeli vessels -- fuck me I'd definitely scab to beat that one. Double bubble innit. Extra bunce and the moral satisfaction of putting one over on the Hamas huggers

 

[nino_savatte]

Blocking Israeli vessels -- fuck me I'd definitely scab to beat that one. Double bubble innit. Extra bunce and the moral satisfaction of putting one over on the Hamas huggers

Ah, but you've scabbed in the post, haven't you? You've no honour or decency. You're lower than a snake's belly.

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I've e-mailed a Wobbly mate in Seattle, to see if he knows whether the US dock unions there will be getting militant (they refused to load vessels destined for Israel in '06 and had an old Congressional act enforced on their arses so that scab and military labour could do the loading instead, IIRC).

...allowing them, if The Wire is to be believed, to go back to their natural behaviour of stealing anything that's not nailed down.

 

[Zachor]

Ah, but you've scabbed in the post, haven't you? You've no honour or decency. You're lower than a snake's belly.

I only scab if a) The union is shit or the reasoning for the strike is unreasonable or pointless and b) if there is a moral imperative to do so as in breaking an unjust blockade against Israeli ships.

At least I can take consolation that I'm not lining up with a bunch of murdering clerical fash like a lot of people on here are doing sadly.

 

[nino_savatte]

I only scab if a) The union is shit or the reasoning for the strike is unreasonable or pointless and b) if there is a moral imperative to do so as in breaking an unjust blockade against Israeli ships.

At least I can take consolation that I'm not lining up with a bunch of murdering clerical fash like a lot of people on here are doing sadly.

Nah, you're just a low down, scab; no honour or decency...you'd stab a mate in the back if it meant getting ahead.

So blockading Israeli ships is "unjust" but the Israeli blockade of Gaza isn't? Try harder.

Oh and I see you couldn't resist the opportunity of resorting to one of your classic smears. You're scum.

 

[Zachor]

Nah, you're just a low down, scab; no honour or decency...you'd stab a mate in the back if it meant getting ahead.

So blockading Israeli ships is "unjust" but the Israeli blockade of Gaza isn't? Try harder.

Oh and I see you couldn't resist the opportunity of resorting to one of your classic smears. You're scum.

Now now nino you know how unattractive it is to froth and dribble

 

[nino_savatte]

Now now nino you know how unattractive it is to froth and dribble

Ah, when you can't claim the moral high ground, you do this. Weak.

How about dealing with this, instead of chucking out nonsense?

So blockading Israeli ships is "unjust" but the Israeli blockade of Gaza isn't? Try harder.

So the Gazans have no right to food or medicine - is that right, KBJ?

 

[Zachor]

Ah, when you can't claim the moral high ground, you do this. Weak.

Yawn.

So the Gazans have no right to food or medicine - is that right, KBJ?

The Gazans certainly have rights to food and medicine. The question is how to get it to the people who need and deserve it without it falling into the hands of Hamas. The Israeli govt DID open the crossings for humanitarian aid and only closed them when the rocket attacks started.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yawn.



The Gazans certainly have rights to food and medicine. The question is how to get it to the people who need and deserve it without it falling into the hands of Hamas. The Israeli govt DID open the crossings for humanitarian aid and only closed them when the rocket attacks started.

That's right, scab, yawn all you like; you're nothing but an apologist for mass murder.

Once again, instead of answering the question in your own words, you parrot the line of Mark Regev...well done. You have no humanity.

 

[TAE]

Normally I am instinctively nervous about boycots against Israel as they CAN originate from a right-wing "don't buy from jews" attitude.

However in the current situation I think an arms embargo on Israel would be a good thing, as they seem to have completely lost the plot regarding what is acceptable use of force.

 

[tangentlama]

My thoughts on this are already recorded in an earlier thread about boycott
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=170894&highlight=boycott

 

[ViolentPanda]

Blocking Israeli vessels -- fuck me I'd definitely scab to beat that one. Double bubble innit. Extra bunce and the moral satisfaction of putting one over on the Hamas huggers

They refused to load vessels destined for Israel (and military auxilliary vessels bound for Iraq), not "Israeli vessels".

 

[ViolentPanda]

...allowing them, if The Wire is to be believed, to go back to their natural behaviour of stealing anything that's not nailed down.

It's regarded as a perk of the job the world over, apparently.