Samira Jassim: this woman is pure evil...

[fela fan]

Do you have any proof that her video confession was as a result of torture? There certainly has been a big rise in female suicide bombers and the story fits the facts.

The longer you have uninvited killers and destroyers in your country, perhaps the more desperate measures you take to get them out.

Let's assume for a minute that this story is true, and this woman has done all of this. Well, i think it is safe to say that even more of this will happen. And it will never stop until the US and the UK get out of that land. They do not belong there, and have done their very best to totally fuck the land up. Never mind having killed off well over a million iraqis, and left countless relatives and friends mourning the loss of their loved ones that the yanks and brits have killed.

Get the terror and terrorists out of iraq. Go home invaders.

 

[editor]

Get the terror and terrorists out of iraq. Go home invaders.

And then all the killing will magically stop, yes?

 

[Spion]

And then all the killing will magically stop, yes?

no, but the choice is:

a) let iraqis fight for political power in that country and achieve a resolution that reflects the balance of social and political forces there
b) have the conflict rumble on interminably and only ever be settled within bounds acceptable to the occupying forces - with a) being the result anyway when the US decides to leave eventually

 

[fela fan]

And then all the killing will magically stop, yes?

Probably yes. Certainly most of it.

And i'm sure any number of lives saved will be worth it, wouldn't you agree editor?

Anyway, take a look at vietnam. The US were in that country killing and bombing its citizens and infrastructure to bits for 20 years. They left, and hey presto, rabbit out of hat, abracadabra, just about the whole killing stopped, and even more magically THE WAR WAS OVER.

It's childsplay man. At least to those westerners not succumbing to the propaganda their leaders and media spout out incessantly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Probably yes. Certainly most of it.

If you believe that, you're truly too naive to be allowed to live. There are massive ethnicity-based secessionist tensions in Iraq's northern and southern regions, and religion-based tensions in the central region. Withdrawal may lead to a lessening of violence, but to believe that "most of it" will cease, rather than there just being a minor reduction unless the various tensions can be politically and diplomatically eased, plainly flies in the face of the facts.

 

[fela fan]

If you believe that, you're truly too naive to be allowed to live.

Well, in that case, take a nice holiday over to thailand and finish me off.

 

[rioted]

Do you have any proof that her video confession was as a result of torture? There certainly has been a big rise in female suicide bombers and the story fits the facts.

Thus are conspiracy theories born.

 

[Spion]

Anyway, take a look at vietnam. The US were in that country killing and bombing its citizens and infrastructure to bits for 20 years. They left, and hey presto, rabbit out of hat, abracadabra, just about the whole killing stopped, and even more magically THE WAR WAS OVER.

In Vietnam there was a well-armed and disciplined state which stepped in to repalce the RVN. There's no analog to this in the Iraq case

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, in that case, take a nice holiday over to thailand and finish me off.

I don't need to kill you. That's the point; you're so naive you'll do yourself in without even noticing it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In Vietnam there was a well-armed and disciplined state which stepped in to repalce the RVN. There's no analog to this in the Iraq case

A well-armed and well-disciplined state which furthermore had recourse to foreign resources to bolster its' attempt at "self-determination" (geographical if not ideological, anyway).

 

[fela fan]

I don't need to kill you. That's the point; you're so naive you'll do yourself in without even noticing it.

Your methods deter people like myself from properly engaging with you. You have shut down any debate by deciding on some kind of whim that i am naive. Instead of sticking to the topic, you jump in to deride the poster. It really is tedious. You also have decided already what the facts are, seemingly they cannot change with time, but that would be another matter.

I do have opinions to back up what i said, but accordingly the motivation to do so is too low.

 

[fela fan]

In Vietnam there was a well-armed and disciplined state which stepped in to repalce the RVN. There's no analog to this in the Iraq case

Can i check up on this a bit? What is RVN? Maybe it's the time of night, but i cannot get the answer.

After 20 years of being occupied and systematically destroyed by the USA, and after years of vietnamese being pitched against vietnamese, there was a well-armed and disciplined state ready to take over? That doesn't seem possible to me.

We could look at iraq alone though. What kind of country was it before the second invasion by the yanks and british? Did iraqi fight iraqi? Did they have a first world infrastructure? Did the country basically get on with normal life? Any divisions and strife between iraqis now is because it was there before 2002 (or whenever the yanks and british invaded), or as a result of the invasion of their nation? I know there were different ethnic peoples there, but it was my understanding that hussein had them living in relative peace. Something akin to the old tito and yugoslavia?

I think it's certain that suicide bombers, as a modus operandi, did not exist in iraq before the western invaders did their bit for iraq.

 

[Spion]

Can i check up on this a bit? What is RVN?

Republic of Viet Nam, ie the south

After 20 years of being occupied and systematically destroyed by the USA, and after years of vietnamese being pitched against vietnamese, there was a well-armed and disciplined state ready to take over?

The RVN state was destroyed by the forces of the northern Vietnamese state militarily. The latter literally took over from the former.

We could look at iraq alone though. What kind of country was it before the second invasion by the yanks and british?

A relatively ill-developed (ie, almost entirely oil-based) dictatorship

Did iraqi fight iraqi? Did they have a first world infrastructure? Did the country basically get on with normal life? Any divisions and strife between iraqis now is because it was there before 2002 (or whenever the yanks and british invaded), or as a result of the invasion of their nation?

It's more instructive, imo, to look at what kind of society underlies every regime that has existed there since the state of Iraq was created and how those regimes have held it together. Every single ruling group since 1922 has been a minority ethnic group attempting to hold a very diverse society living in almost arbitrary boundaries by predominantly force (or the fear of) and some cooption. At the same time the diverse ethnic groups have struggled for the prize, access to oil revenues, which is virtually the only way to make real money and wield real power in Iraq

IMO, like, but read up for yourself

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your methods deter people like myself from properly engaging with you. You have shut down any debate by deciding on some kind of whim that i am naive.

It's hardly a whim. It's an assessment governed by what's contained in your post about "most" of the fighting in Iraq "certainly" stopping after US withdrawal, when the current tensions between regions and ethnicities militate otherwise.

Instead of sticking to the topic, you jump in to deride the poster.

It's not derision.

It really is tedious. You also have decided already what the facts are, seemingly they cannot change with time, but that would be another matter.

Of course things can change with time, but you made an assessment of the present and the immediate future which is utterly at odds with current events.

I do have opinions to back up what i said, but accordingly the motivation to do so is too low.

Wow, opinions.
How about facts? You know, like the ongoing problems I mentioned earlier?

 

[fela fan]

It's hardly a whim. It's an assessment governed by what's contained in your post about "most" of the fighting in Iraq "certainly" stopping after US withdrawal, when the current tensions between regions and ethnicities militate otherwise.

It's not derision.

Of course things can change with time, but you made an assessment of the present and the immediate future which is utterly at odds with current events.

Wow, opinions.
How about facts? You know, like the ongoing problems I mentioned earlier?

No, you see, i didn't. I made no mention of time frames about when the killing would stop, most of it or all of it. Just that this would be an outcome of US and UK withdrawal. Nothing about the 'immediate' future or even the present. It's you who added the time frame VP.

Somebody is not worth living if they're that naive. Well, if it ain't derision, it certainly ain't pretty. Call it what you want though, but it hardly furthers the debate.

As for facts, i just happen to have a different 'opinion' of them than you do, patently. I don't believe i can get any 'facts' to hand, nor any of us can unless we're directly involved. Getting facts from media, mainstream or not, is for me notoriously difficult considering almost everybody has an agenda or is involved in propaganda. What you accept as 'facts', i prefer to categorise under 'opinions'.

We might also be coming into this debate from different starting points, which will also have a bearing on what we say. I imagine part of debating is where the communicators have to come to understanding of the positions others are starting from.

 

[likesfish]

its a new low
from the people who brought you chemical sucide bombers tanker full of nasty stuff blown up.
learning disabled suicide bombers
Bitch will hang so no loss

 

[Spion]

Watched an Egyptian film at the weekend and one of the main male characters was bum raped by the secret police. What I inferred from that was that destroying someone's dignity by rape was not invented by the Islamists and that if the practice was carried out by the Egyptian Mukhabarat you can be sure their Iraqi counterparts had probably been at it for a while

 

[kyser_soze]

Watched an Egyptian film at the weekend and one of the main male characters was bum raped by the secret police. What I inferred from that was that destroying someone's dignity by rape was not invented by the Islamists and that if the practice was carried out by the Egyptian Mukhabarat you can be sure their Iraqi counterparts had probably been at it for a while

Rape has been used to do this for millenia, to men and women. Did someone on here imply that Islamists invented it?

 

[diego]

Can i check up on this a bit? What is RVN? Maybe it's the time of night, but i cannot get the answer.

After 20 years of being occupied and systematically destroyed by the USA, and after years of vietnamese being pitched against vietnamese, there was a well-armed and disciplined state ready to take over? That doesn't seem possible to me.

We could look at iraq alone though. What kind of country was it before the second invasion by the yanks and british? Did iraqi fight iraqi? Did they have a first world infrastructure? Did the country basically get on with normal life? Any divisions and strife between iraqis now is because it was there before 2002 (or whenever the yanks and british invaded), or as a result of the invasion of their nation? I know there were different ethnic peoples there, but it was my understanding that hussein had them living in relative peace. Something akin to the old tito and yugoslavia?

I think it's certain that suicide bombers, as a modus operandi, did not exist in iraq before the western invaders did their bit for iraq.

Spot on Fela. You know these are exactly the questions people will not ask themselves when they discuss issues like Iraq. The propaganda machine very cleverly manage to portray the victims as the criminlas and here we are discussing Samira Jasim who would not exist if there had been no invasion of her country, no creation of over a million widows who have lost everything when the West "liberated" them from Saddam.

How foolishly (or deliberately in some cases) people fall for the bullshit and suddenly become experts on the country, Islam and various sects and there politics when simply most of the current problems in the world currently are thanks to the "Democracy loving West" and its band of merry robbers.

 

[Spion]

Rape has been used to do this for millenia, to men and women. Did someone on here imply that Islamists invented it?

Stating that someone is 'pure evil' for use of rape as a tactic while failing to recognise the context of the of use of such a tactic by state forces isn't telling the whole story, is it?

I don't believe in evil, so I think it's worth saying that this woman probably didn't just dream the idea up from nowhere given that she lives in what has been one of the most repressive states and brutalised populations on the planet.