Salma Yaqoob on 'Any Questions?' Friday 14th December 8pm

[nino_savatte]

Well, the AWL claim to be anti-war, just not in favour of withdrawing the troops - like the Liberal Democrats.

The AWL and SWP were together in the Socialist Alliance. It will be a real test of the SWP's commitment to creating an inclusive 'coalition' as to whether they can last more than five minutes together.

These days they seem to be united by a common hatred of Galloway and Yaqoob and their alleged 'communalism', so maybe they'll be able to get it together? But my guess is that the SWP will close down their wing of 'Respect' in the near future, probably shortly after their conference and well before running the risk of a bad set of results in the May elections or going to the NUS conference in April with the AWL on their coatails, so it may not come to it.

Lyndsey German has been humiliated by the activist majority, including all the councillors, in Newham Respect supporting the 'Renewal' camp. http://www.respectrenewal.org/content/view/90/1/

In the SWP preconference bulletins they held up Newham as a 'model' Respect branch. It is debatable where German's campaign for London Mayor goes from here. Rumour has it the SWP are considering pulling out.

What a mess. I can't see any arrangement between the AWL and the SWP lasting very long for pretty obvious reasons tbh.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

What a mess. I can't see any arrangement between the AWL and the SWP lasting very long for pretty obvious reasons tbh.

Quite.

[PS Sorry you replied straightaway before I had chance to edit the final sentence hence my post is slightly different to your quote - ooops my fault, I'll try not to do it again!]

 

[FridgeMagnet]

What was Salma Yaqoob like on the programme?

Pretty good I thought; a couple of obvious waffles, but mostly very confident, good delivery, good points. Mind you, the rest of the panel were so awful, she wasn't exactly pushed; Liam Byrne played the irrational partisan NL hack, Shailesh Vara played the irrational partisan Tory hack, and Douglas Murray played himself.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

God that Douglas Murray makes the average neo con loon look sane....

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Pretty good I thought; a couple of obvious waffles, but mostly very confident, good delivery, good points. Mind you, the rest of the panel were so awful, she wasn't exactly pushed; Liam Byrne played the irrational partisan NL hack, Shailesh Vara played the irrational partisan Tory hack, and Douglas Murray played himself.

Fair summary. I thought her first reply was the best - she managed to get how the police were asked to be tools of New Labour's 'draconian legislation', the causes of inflation, and that this was about an ideological attack on public sector pay all into about 20 seconds.

 

[nwnm]

The most interesting part of that respect renewal link Fisher Price put up was the piece about Galloway "Welcoming those who had recently broken away from Respect to the meeting" breaking away can also be described as splitting. By their words shall ye know them.....

As opposed to resigning the whip which is what our RESPECT councillors did in TH.

 

[nwnm]

if the SWP CC told you to jump off a high building, would you do it? My bet is that you would.

Only if you were there to break my fall

 

[Fisher_Gate]

The most interesting part of that respect renewal link Fisher Price put up was the piece about Galloway "Welcoming those who had recently broken away from Respect to the meeting" breaking away can also be described as splitting. By their words shall ye know them.....

As opposed to resigning the whip which is what our RESPECT councillors did in TH.

There are now two Respects - Galloway was referring to SWP-Respect.

Your councillors did not just resign the whip, they constituted a seperate group with its own leader and deputy leader, had negotiations with the LibDems and called a press conference to attack the Respect group in public. And despite being members of both the national and local leadership of Respect they did nothing to raise the alleged issues within it prior to their resignation. And they didn't tell the SWP leadership what they were going to do either, though that doesn't bother me much, it ought to bother you as you then had no choice but to back your own party's members even though their tactics were stupid.

When are the members of the SWP going to be told that Lindsey German will no longer be a candidate for Mayor of London?

Come on, let's hear you deny that?

I dare you to deny it ... but you won't - you know your leadership are about to do it and you daren't be seen as even more stupid by saying it won't happen, when you know it might.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Only if you were there to break my fall

I'll stand at the bottom and you can jump. I'll swear on a copy of John Rees' collected contribution to developing marxist theory that I won't move away before you hit the ground.

 

[JHE]

When are the members of the SWP going to be told that Lindsey German will no longer be a candidate for Mayor of London?

I'm not sure it matters much whether Ms Kraut is a candidate for the mayoralty.

If, on the other hand, she is also not going to be an al-Respeq candidate for the GLA (as seems likely), that could be a little bit of a disappointment for her and her fellow Social Workers. There was a risk she would (just) win a seat. If she were on the GLA, she would appear more often on regional news programmes and suchlike, being her usual uninspired and uninspiring, daft, sub-Trot, Islamophile self.

Let us hope that the Muslim peoples of London rise up to demand that Ms Kraut be their candidate.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I'm not sure it matters much whether Ms Kraut is a candidate for the mayoralty.

If, on the other hand, she is also not going to be an al-Respeq candidate for the GLA (as seems likely), that could be a little bit of a disappointment for her and her fellow Social Workers. There was a risk she would (just) win a seat. If she were on the GLA, she would appear more often on regional news programmes and suchlike, being her usual uninspired and uninspiring, daft, sub-Trot, Islamophile self.

Let us hope that the Muslim peoples of London rise up to demand that Ms Kraut be their candidate.

Are you capable of posting anything without using derogatory terms about other nationalities?

 

[JHE]

You'd better stay clear of the 'education & employment' forum for a while, Fishy. There are people there making sheep-shagger jokes! It could play havoc with your blood pressure.

 

[nwnm]

I'll stand at the bottom and you can jump. I'll swear on a copy of John Rees' collected contribution to developing marxist theory that I won't move away before you hit the ground.

No - I'd want you superglued to the pavement first. Your an othordox Trot; which means various parts of your body might decide to go their separate ways (all claiming to be the 'real' you) leaving me with nothing to land on

 

[Fisher_Gate]

No - I'd want you superglued to the pavement first. Your an othordox Trot; which means various parts of your body might decide to go their separate ways (all claiming to be the 'real' you) leaving me with nothing to land on

I could provide a pile of Lindsey German's manifestos for Mayor of London to give a soft landing, if you would rather trust that?

 

[nwnm]

If I had the various manifestos/documents, theses <or should that be faeces?> of your political current I wouldn't have to jump very far at all - even if I had to jump off a very tall building indeed.

So, did Alan Thornett pen galloway's document then? Our Georgie ain't that good at joined up writing - most of his SW stuff had to be proof read btw

 

[butchersapron]

If I had the various manifestos/documents, theses <or should that be faeces?

That's amazing, you're the first person ever to say that.

 

[nwnm]

Its one thing to say it - another to talk it

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Its one thing to say it - another to talk it

No comment on Lindsey not running for Mayor then?

 

[nwnm]

That would be a decision for RESPECT - the organisation your mates split away from - to make. At present, she is the candidate selected overwhelmingly by respect members to stand, (including by your mates). A pseudo respect group would have some explaining to do if it chose someone to stand against her. Or as Brecht would have put it -

After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writer's Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?

(of course in this case the people would have forfeited the confidence of Georgie boy - so he's tried to dissolve respect, hasn't worked though)
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13779
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=13778

 

[Fisher_Gate]

That would be a decision for RESPECT - the organisation your mates split away from - to make. At present, she is the candidate selected overwhelmingly by respect members to stand, (including by your mates). ...

I notice the qualifier - "At present". Which means you do not know yet whether she will continue so you are hedging your bets.

That's because you are a lowly troll, not part of the real decision-making of your organisation - you do as you are told and have no say in any major decisions.

And you are wrong if you believe that it is a decision for the group of people you call 'RESPECT', appointed at the 'conference' at Westminster University on November 17th.

She is a member of the SWP, which claims to take party discipline very seriously (unless you are a councillor in Tower Hamlets in which case you can do what you like without consulting the party).

It is a decision for the SWP Central Committee and the SWP CC alone.

The 60% of the so-called 'steering committee' appointed on 17th November who are also members of the SWP will be expected to rubber stamp the decision to withdraw her candidature, or they will be expelled.

 

[nwnm]

IThat's because you are a lowly troll, not part of the real decision-making of your organisation

Coming from someone who chirped in saying they didn't know whether they were a member of RESPECT or not on another thread, (and claims not to be a member of the ISG whilst taking socialist Outlook's line on RESPECT, to the role of Militant in Liverpool), thats pretty lame TROLL yer fuckin' self <cue Frankie Goes to Hollywood re-write "When two trolls go to war......" )

 

[JHE]

It's tough for these two, Fisher & nwnwnw.

nwnwnw's sect has fucked up, leaving its remaining members looking like right wallies.

By fucking up, the Social Workers have also left the ISG and Fisher in a strange position. The ISG was not the inventor of Islamo-Trottery. The Social Workers invented it. The ISG joined up, as far as I can see, because they thought that al-Respeq would be a way to bring the left together and were happy to accept Islamo-Trottery as a way of making up the numbers.

The Social Workers are left with a tiny handful of recruits, greater losses, and a facade. They have kept hardly any of the Muslims. (Four pleasant but easily confused councillors in Tower Hamladesh are the notable exceptions.)

The ISG has been left with GG, the Muslim businessmen, the 'community leaders' and so on. The ISG is very small. Even if you add in the odd fellow traveller like Fisher, they are only a few dozen people.

In short:

• For the Social Workers: it's now Islamo-Trottery without the Muslims (and without the GG)
• For the ISG: it's Islamo-Trottery without the Trots

O Folly, thy name is Trot!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Coming from someone who chirped in saying they didn't know whether they were a member of RESPECT or not on another thread, (and claims not to be a member of the ISG whilst taking socialist Outlook's line on RESPECT, to the role of Militant in Liverpool), thats pretty lame TROLL yer fuckin' self <cue Frankie Goes to Hollywood re-write "When two trolls go to war......" )

Ah but I don't claim to be leading Respect ... I'm just a humble leaflet deliverer ...

 

[Fisher_Gate]

It's tough for these two, Fisher & nwnwnw.

nwnwnw's sect has fucked up, leaving its remaining members looking like right wallies.

By fucking up, the Social Workers have also left the ISG and Fisher in a strange position. The ISG was not the inventor of Islamo-Trottery. The Social Workers invented it. The ISG joined up, as far as I can see, because they thought that al-Respeq would be a way to bring the left together and were happy to accept Islamo-Trottery as a way of making up the numbers.

The Social Workers are left with a tiny handful of recruits, greater losses, and a facade. They have kept hardly any of the Muslims. (Four pleasant but easily confused councillors in Tower Hamladesh are the notable exceptions.)

The ISG has been left with GG, the Muslim businessmen, the 'community leaders' and so on. The ISG is very small. Even if you add in the odd fellow traveller like Fisher, they are only a few dozen people.

In short:

• For the Social Workers: it's now Islamo-Trottery without the Muslims (and without the GG)
• For the ISG: it's Islamo-Trottery without the Trots

O Folly, thy name is Trot!

You seem to assume that the ISG will behave within Respect Renewal exactly as the SWP did in Respect Mark 1. Why? The ISG never opposed muslims being in Respect. But it had a better understanding of the issues of political programme.
See:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article672
and for a broader perspective:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?rubrique76

 

[JHE]

You seem to assume that the ISG will behave within Respect Renewal exactly as the SWP did in Respect Mark 1.

No, I assume nothing of the sort. You seem to miss my point. I wonder if that isn't deliberate.

As I understand it, the ISG/4thInt/Fisher_G line is and long has been that the left should get together in left parties - but with the right to continue as factions within the broader democratic left alliance.

In this country, the Social Workers, though they are not a big group, are by far the biggest grouping of Trots - and indeed the biggest grouping of would-be 'Marxist' 'revolutionaries' of any sort. They are, therefore, very important to your idea of uniting the left.

They've now buggered off from your al-Respeq (or you and others have buggered from the Social Workers' al-Respeq - it makes no difference) and you are left with a version of al-Respeq that has a very depleted Trot component. There's just a handful of you left.

You didn't want al-Respeq to split. You wanted GG and his businessmen and the community leaders and the Social Workers to make peace. That's entirely understandable, given your Islamophilia and your policy of gluing together the left, though with added Islam & GG.

You didn't get your way. You've now inherited Islamo-Trottery from the Social Workers but with less than a tenth (?) of the number of Trots.

Of course you won't behave like the Social Workers. You can't. You are a tiny little appendage to GG and the likes of Big Abjol.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

No, I assume nothing of the sort. You seem to miss my point. I wonder if that isn't deliberate.

As I understand it, the ISG/4thInt/Fisher_G line is and long has been that the left should get together in left parties - but with the right to continue as factions within the broader democratic left alliance.

In this country, the Social Workers, though they are not a big group, are by far the biggest grouping of Trots - and indeed the biggest grouping of would-be 'Marxist' 'revolutionaries' of any sort. They are, therefore, very important to your idea of uniting the left.

They've now buggered off from your al-Respeq (or you and others have buggered from the Social Workers' al-Respeq - it makes no difference) and you are left with a version of al-Respeq that has a very depleted Trot component. There's just a handful of you left.

You didn't want al-Respeq to split. You wanted GG and his businessmen and the community leaders and the Social Workers to make peace. That's entirely understandable, given your Islamophilia and your policy of gluing together the left, though with added Islam & GG.

You didn't get your way. You've now inherited Islamo-Trottery from the Social Workers but with less than a tenth (?) of the number of Trots.

Of course you won't behave like the Social Workers. You can't. You are a tiny little appendage to GG and the likes of Big Abjol.

Well it would have been better if the SWP had been more committed to a united left organisation, but now at least it's clear they are not.

It's a sad outcome and they will no doubt head back to becoming a propaganda group leaving others to clear up the mess they made. But with every door that closes another opens, so I hope that Respect Renewal, smaller though it is, is able to work with other forces to seek to assemble the basis for a new party of the left.

I'm old enough to remember a time when the SLL/WRP were the largest left organisation, and after them RSL/Militant. So the fact that the current largest group, the SWP, are now heading towards an implosion and becoming a sect is not the end of the world - though unfortunately it does seem to be a british disease. The SP and some of the other groups seem to be getting healthier as the SWP decline, and there is a new layer of former Labour supporters and eco activists out there who are seeking anti-capitalist answers to the problems of society and the environment, so I am quite fundamentally optimistic about the prospects for working together and trying to create the preconditions for building a new left party. I never saw Respect Mark 1 as the finished product - it had to evolve and develop and drop its arrogant stance to seeming to have all the solutions anyway.

But your islamophobia has no answers for the british working class. I'm quite comfortable working with muslims who believe in social change, even if we disagree over the existence of god.

 

[Groucho]

You seem to assume that the ISG will behave within Respect Renewal exactly as the SWP did in Respect Mark 1. Why? The ISG never opposed muslims being in Respect. But it had a better understanding of the issues of political programme.
See:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article672
and for a broader perspective:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?rubrique76

Aren't the ISG having internal difficulties about how much to now put up with from the likes of GG? For instance the announcement by GG that RR will be supporting Livingstone for Mayor. In official Respect the SWP was influential enough to ensure that such decisions were subject to debate and decision by votes at meetings. Seems RR is now a fully Stalinist organisation and Thornton is happy to go along with that.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Aren't the ISG having internal difficulties about how much to now put up with from the likes of GG? For instance the announcement by GG that RR will be supporting Livingstone for Mayor. In official Respect the SWP was influential enough to ensure that such decisions were subject to debate and decision by votes at meetings. Seems RR is now a fully Stalinist organisation and Thornton is happy to go along with that.

I wouldn't know about the internal debates of the ISG as I'm not a member.

Certainly for those of us around RR, a lively but fraternal debate is taking place about tactics towards Livingstone, which rather defeats the argument that it is stalinist. Having spent over 20 years in the Labour Party with Livingstone (I was in the original SCLV with him), I'm fairly relaxed about it as I believe that Livingstone and his supporters are part of the left in Britain; he's done some pretty scabby things, but so have the stalinists and the Greens, they are still part of the recomposition of the left. I haven't made my mind up about what I think should be done, and since I don't live in London I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.

Since RR is not an organisation yet and the election is an evolving debate, it's perfectly okay for GG to nail his colours to the mast ... I don't agree with him on scottish independence or the existence of god either, so there are plenty of things we can disagree on. There is an argument that the race for Mayor is not a major divisive issue since even the SWP are in favour of casting a vote for Livingstone against Johnson.

There is of course the emerging issue of what to do when, as now seems inevitable, the SWP decide to withdraw Lindsey German from the race for Mayor in the near future. One thing I can guarantee is that the members of the SWP will not make that decision - the CC will decide it for them.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Aren't the ISG having internal difficulties about how much to now put up with from the likes of GG? For instance the announcement by GG that RR will be supporting Livingstone for Mayor. In official Respect the SWP was influential enough to ensure that such decisions were subject to debate and decision by votes at meetings. Seems RR is now a fully Stalinist organisation and Thornton is happy to go along with that.

BTW Thornton is a shop where you can buy chocolates (as well as being the birthplace of the Bronte sisters). I think you meant Thornett.

 

[nwnm]

Groucho, You mean Alan Thornett (your as fond of chocolate as me ) FG can't answer this as he is only a lowly troll of course. RR to support Ken 'scab on the underground' Livingstone? Brings to mind that old David Essex 'Evita' number "Oh what a circus, oh what a show....." Is Alan Thornett still chief scriptwriter for georgie? He's probably desperately singing that other David Essex number, "hold me close don't let me go....." Just remember what happened to Scargill's Trots I tells ya (remember FISC?)......