Saddest song ever?

[matt m]

just listened on Spotify: it's unquestionably a song in a minor key.

if you were playing it in A minor the verse would be that A minor riff going down to E minor before coming back to A minor.

Then the chorus would be C major ("Fade") to E minor ("Out") resolving back to A minor (the "gain" of "a-gain")

Almost all of the song is based around the first three notes of a minor scale, and also the fifth.

 

[8ball]

All the chords fit for being in either Cmaj or Am.

So you reckon the resolve to the Am is important - that sounds a bit like the old 'look for the first chord' rule of thumb but I'm not sure.

I don't see any notes that don't fit the Cmaj scale (aside from that little guitar solo bit, maybe). The guitar piece is just the 3 simple chords (with the descending bit done with the pinky and index finger, which is a bit of Cmaj but possibly also Am).

We had a thread on this sort of thing a while back . . .

Tank Park Salute also gives me a lump in the throat.

 

[kabbes]

just listened on Spotify: it's unquestionably a song in a minor key.

if you were playing it in A minor the verse would be that A minor riff going down to E minor before coming back to A minor.

Then the chorus would be C major ("Fade") to E minor ("Out") resolving back to A minor (the "gain" of "a-gain")

Almost all of the song is based around the first three notes of a minor scale, and also the fifth.

But you're making the mistake of thinking that a chord corresponds to the key that the song is in. The key signature is unlikely to change (although of course it can do as many times as it likes, generally song-writers won't go through too many key changes).

Basically, I think it is a song in a major key that uses a lot of minor chords. I say this because a lot of the time, the minor chords get resolved at the end of the musical phrase. Tellingly, there don't seem to be a lot of diminished versions of the seventh note.

At the end of the day, however, it's rather subjective. If the key signature has no sharps or flats then it could be either C-major or A-minor and the only difference between the two is in how you interpret the music.

 

[kabbes]

It could be that we're coming at it from different perspectives too. I am entirely classically trained and I'm trying to interpret pop through this medium, which may not be entirely appropriate.

 

[8ball]

. . . there don't seem to be a lot of diminished versions of the seventh note.

At the end of the day, however, it's rather subjective. If the key signature has no sharps or flats then it could be either C-major or A-minor and the only difference between the two is in how you interpret the music.

You've sprung me. I basically thought it was Cmaj because the notes that are there seem to fit it and there are no nasty hard-to-play diminished seventh nonsenses.

 

[kabbes]

One interesting thing to consider is the chord that it finishes with. Music generally (although certainly not exclusively) resolves to the tonic at the end. To me, it sounds like Street Spirit resolves to a major chord, not a minor one. (I don't think the initial "Again" is the end of the chorus, is it? I think it then goes to "again" again in a lower register?)

One subtle possibility, of course, is that the verse is effectively in A-minor and the chorus effectively in C-major. There would be no impact on the key signature, but it would give a different flavour to the verse and chorus.

 

[matt m]

Sure, there are some pieces of music where the key is ambiguous. And plenty of pieces of music where it's pointless to point to it and say that it's in this key or that key (too many chord changes).

But that particular song is about the most unambiguous minor chord song you'll find. It's textbook.

The song's melody is nothing but variations on the the first three, and the fifth, notes of the minor scale. (Yeah, the guitar riff encounters a few Ds, which Yorke's vocal picks up on later in the song, but that's about it.) Go to a piano and play the notes A, B, C and E. I defy anyone to tell me that's a major chord. You could say it's an inversion of a C major 7th but that would be simply perverse in this context given the fact that the song iterates and reiterates the note A every fifth beat – I mean, the note A is sounded strongly as the root note of almost every measure of the song! The only time the song plays a C chord is the first four beats of the chorus.

Sure, there are no notes in the song that aren't in the C major scale but that's because - surprise surprise - C is the relative major of A minor. To suggest it's in C major flies in the face of music theory. If it's in C major, isn't it a bit strange that every instrument, including the vocalist keep on emphasizing the note A, playing LOADS of minor intervals and generally being mournful and angsty?

 

[kabbes]

Maybe I need to listen to it again. I haven't heard it in a good long while.

 

[matt m]

One subtle possibility, of course, is that the verse is effectively in A-minor and the chorus effectively in C-major. There would be no impact on the key signature, but it would give a different flavour to the verse and chorus.

the chorus's chords are C major, E minor, A minor. Trust me. It's the same chord progression as "Fade to Grey" by Visage. Always wondered if there was a subliminal influence there...

 

[8ball]

the chorus's chords are C major, E minor, A minor. Trust me. It's the same chord progression as "Fade to Grey" by Visage. Always wondered if there was a subliminal influence there...

Ok, The Passenger by Iggy Pop - what key would you say that's in?

(it's another one that I consider in C . . .)

edit: I won't be able to listen to Street Spirit now without noticing the Visage song similarity . . .

 

[matt m]

well there's much more of a debate with the Passenger, I'd say. There's more ambiguity. Let's say The Passenger riff is: A minor, F maj, C major, G major. (This is from memory, but I think it's right). For a start you've got the C major chord being iterated much more often. The song is just that riff, isn't it? It's 2 beats of each chord. So it's a bit more even.

To be honest though I still would say A minor. If you were to thump just the one note throughout on top of that song, an A would would sound to me like the tonic, whereas the C would jar when you got to the G major part of the cycle. Plus it does start on a minor chord with a sung 5th.

The mood/swing of the song militates against minor, but then there's still a hint of menace/threat, and you can't account for that without pointing to the A minor chord in there.

 

[kabbes]

I don't disagree with you as such, matt, but thumping an A would cause more dissonance with the G chord than thumping a C would. It's a second, which never sounds good. In fact, since C is the minor-third, fifth, tonic and fourth intervals to A, F, C and G respectively, thumping a C would sound right all through that progression.

 

[8ball]

Ok. You remember the chords correctly, anyway. If I play a C on the bass against the start of each chord change in my head I don't get any jarring against the G chord, though (which I wouldn't expect anyway, G being the fifth from the C).

Not sure why 'menace' equates with 'minor'. Maybe harmonic minor . . .

Though I can see more sources saying Street Spirit is in Am, I can find stuff on the net saying both songs are in Cmaj, so at least it's not just me making this mistake.

 

[matt m]

I don't disagree with you as such, matt, but thumping an A would cause more dissonance with the G chord than thumping a C would. It's a second, which never sounds good. In fact, since C is the minor-third, fifth, tonic and fourth intervals to A, F, C and G respectively, thumping a C would sound right all through that progression.

Yeah, that just occurred to me myself, running it through in my head! Though I don't think the C would fit with the G either though - it's a G major chord, with Iggy singing a D on top.

I suppose, thinking about it, what it comes down to for me is that the chord progression ends on an unresolved chord each time (the G) so psychologically my brain hears the chord that follows it each time (A min) as a resolve.

Hey, Rock School! Bet everyone's finding this thread fascinating...

 

[matt m]

a good comparison would be London Calling. That's the same chord progression as Passenger, and the vocal line is quite similar notes too. I don't think anyone would say that that's in a major key. I guess it's got that intro before each verse though, which a really strong minor-key bassline. Paging Charles Hazlewood.

 

[stavros]

"By This River" by Brian Eno has some very sombre tones to it. "An Ending (Ascent)" too.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

An old country and western song my dad use to play when I was young - can't remember what it was called but it was VERY SAD! And that was nothing to do with it being country and western BTW.

 

[A. Spies]

going to regret posting an emo song on a thread about truly sad songs but I like it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Every Rose has its Thorn by Poison.

Patches, by Clarence Carter.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

"By This River" by Brian Eno has some very sombre tones to it. "An Ending (Ascent)" too.

I find "An Ending (Ascent) very beautiful and comforting rather than sad. It's the piece I expect to hear as I pass through the pearly gates!

"You Don't Have to Say You Love Me" by Dusty Springfield made me cry when I was about 8, and it still does.