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Saddam sentenced to death by hanging

jæd said:
So.. Did the USA (and the UK) made Saddam a dictator and a thug...? Because reading his biography he was a nasty bit of work from the beginning...

It would be nice if we never had to deal with evil people like Saddam, but in life you have to. If the US and let Saddam carry on then they would be equally bad, but at least he has been brought to justice...

The thing that the media and the politicians oevrlook, and indeed, conceal from most of the public is the fact that Britain killed thousands of Arabs and Kurds with poison gas and by burning their villages in the 1920's. Brutality has been a feature of Iraqi life since the country's inception in 1922. 2,000 Assyrians were gunned down as the fled to the Syrian border. Oddly enough, this event has been practically airbrushed from history because it goes against the official narrative. The Kurds were always at war with the Baghdad administration and, in the mid-60's Barzani did a deal with the then President, Abdul Salim Arif. It was shortlived.
 
Dubversion said:
i was about to link to that. Powerful stuff
a selective quote from Fisk -
after a trial at which the former Iraqi mass murderer was formally forbidden from describing his relationship with Donald Rumsfeld, now George Bush's Secretary of Defence. Remember that handshake? Nor, of course, was he permitted to talk about the support he received from George Bush Snr, the current US President's father. Little wonder, then, that Iraqi officials claimed last week the Americans had been urging them to sentence Saddam before the mid-term US elections.

i have to bring this one up again: Ari Shavit - White man's burden
Actually, the Iraq war is a kind of Jenin on a huge scale. Because in Jenin, too, what happened was that the Israelis told the Palestinians, We left you here alone and you played with matches until suddenly you blew up a Passover seder in Netanya. And therefore we are not going to leave you along any longer. We will go from house to house in the Casbah. And from America's point of view, Saddam's Iraq is Jenin. This war is a defensive shield. It follows that the danger is the same: that like Israel, America will make the mistake of using only force.

This is not an illegitimate war, Friedman says. But it is a very presumptuous war. You need a great deal of presumption to believe that you can rebuild a country half a world from home. But if such a presumptuous war is to have a chance, it needs international support. That international legitimacy is essential so you will have enough time and space to execute your presumptuous project. But George Bush didn't have the patience to glean international support. He gambled that the war would justify itself, that we would go in fast and conquer fast and that the Iraqis would greet us with rice and the war would thus be self-justifying. That did not happen. Maybe it will happen next week, but in the meantime it did not happen.

When I think about what is going to happen, I break into a sweat, Friedman says. I see us being forced to impose a siege on Baghdad. And I know what kind of insanity a siege on Baghdad can unleash. The thought of house-to-house combat in Baghdad without international legitimacy makes me lose my appetite. I see American embassies burning. I see windows of American businesses shattered. I see how the Iraqi resistance to America connects to the general Arab resistance to America and the worldwide resistance to America. The thought of what could happen is eating me up.

What George Bush did, Friedman says, is to show us a splendid mahogany table: the new democratic Iraq. But when you turn the table over, you see that it has only one leg. This war is resting on one leg. But on the other hand, anyone who thinks he can defeat George Bush had better think again. Bush will never give in. That's not what he's made of. Believe me, you don't want to be next to this guy when he thinks he's being backed into a corner. I don't suggest that anyone who holds his life dear mess with Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush.

Is the Iraq war the great neoconservative war? It's the war the neoconservatives wanted, Friedman says. It's the war the neoconservatives marketed. Those people had an idea to sell when September 11 came, and they sold it. Oh boy, did they sell it. So this is not a war that the masses demanded. This is a war of an elite. Friedman laughs: I could give you the names of 25 people (all of whom are at this moment within a five-block radius of this office) who, if you had exiled them to a desert island a year and a half ago, the Iraq war would not have happened.

Still, it's not all that simple, Friedman retracts. It's not some fantasy the neoconservatives invented. It's not that 25 people hijacked America. You don't take such a great nation into such a great adventure with Bill Kristol and the Weekly Standard and another five or six influential columnists. In the final analysis, what fomented the war is America's over-reaction to September 11. The genuine sense of anxiety that spread in America after September 11. It is not only the neoconservatives who led us to the outskirts of Baghdad. What led us to the outskirts of Baghdad is a very American combination of anxiety and hubris.

i guess that'll teach Saddam to mess with Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and President Bush.
the war was 'illegitimate' . reckon the US will blame lack of 'international support' for it's 'failure'?
 
Bernie Gunther said:
He's not in any meaningful sense getting killed for his crimes, he's getting killed to shut him up and to provide the Republicans with an election boost.

Not sure that's true, Republicans have been trying to talk about everything EXCEPT the war over the last week or so.......
 
david dissadent said:
Lol tres amusing. Beats debating with well informed people.

I hope you're not labouring under the delusion that you are one of those "well-informed people"?

Is it that hard to accept that what you actually are is an apologist for power?
 
jæd said:
So.. Did the USA (and the UK) made Saddam a dictator and a thug...? Because reading his biography he was a nasty bit of work from the beginning...

It would be nice if we never had to deal with evil people like Saddam, but in life you have to. If the US and let Saddam carry on then they would be equally bad, but at least he has been brought to justice...

If you circumvent the whole pre-WW2 history of the region and proceed from the "Eisenhower doctrine" onward then the US, along with the UK, and to a lesser degree the other NATO countries have responsibility for making Iraq the kind of place where a dictator of Saddam's mould could flourish, and for keeping the flame of political Islam burning in the rest of the ME/NA.
IMO where people go wrong is in believing that anyone at the State Department or at the Foreign Office has ever given a rat's arse about who holds power in the oil-producing countries, just as long as they keep the oil flowing. Any rhetoric about him being "brought to justice" is strictly an insincere exercise at playing to the cameras.

If you "enjoyed" Saddam's biography you might also enjoy "Devil's Game" by Robert Dreyfuss or "Taliban" and "Jihad" by Ahmed Rashid.
 
ViolentPanda said:
If you circumvent the whole pre-WW2 history of the region and proceed from the "Eisenhower doctrine" onward then the US, along with the UK, and to a lesser degree the other NATO countries have responsibility for making Iraq the kind of place where a dictator of Saddam's mould could flourish, and for keeping the flame of political Islam burning in the rest of the ME/NA.
IMO where people go wrong is in believing that anyone at the State Department or at the Foreign Office has ever given a rat's arse about who holds power in the oil-producing countries, just as long as they keep the oil flowing. Any rhetoric about him being "brought to justice" is strictly an insincere exercise at playing to the cameras.

If you "enjoyed" Saddam's biography you might also enjoy "Devil's Game" by Robert Dreyfuss or "Taliban" and "Jihad" by Ahmed Rashid.

Exactly and the media in the west never once reported the events that took place before, during and after the 1963 coup. As for the pre-WWII period, the media were, again, complicit in their silence. Hence the massacre of 2,000 Assyrians gets no mention nor does the fact that the Kurds and Baghdad have been at each other's throats for the better part of 80 years....or that the Barzanis run the whole KDP.

Of course the first Iraqi military strongman, Bakr Sidqi gets bugger all mention even though he set the trend for military coups.
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
So anarchy to you is about simple retribution then? Eye for an eye? The way we deal with people killing others on a random basis is kill them too?

Fucking pathetic.
No, that's the way we deal with all politicians :cool:
 
rowson.jpg
 
jæd said:
It would be nice if we never had to deal with evil people like Saddam, but in life you have to. .
If the US and let Saddam carry on then they would be equally bad, .
err, you mean like the rather larger amount of unpleasant regimes we DO already deal with, and in fact encourage, all around the world, as we have always done?
but at least he has been brought to justice.
1) if it wasn't for the US and UK he'd have been nothing in the first place
2) to paraphrase private Eye - if this is 'justice' then i'm a banana
e2a: and wot da panda said
 
I'm very curious about whether he'll be seen as a martyr after this is all said and done. Letting him sit in jail, i think would eliminate that possibility, but not stringing him up might get him support. (not to mention all the lefties finding something wrong with his situation in jail.)

I think its also funny how people bring up the "argument" that "...Tony/George killed thousands (sniffle)..." aswell as whine about things like how we ignored the Holocaust, turned back Jewish refugees, ignore Rawandan genocide, ignore the communist bullying/torture/genocide of Tibetans.
And now a poem...

In time of trouble, and in war . . .
God and soldier all men adore.
But when war is over and all things righted . . .
God is forgotten, and the soldier slighted.

-Taken from a soldier's pocket after the Battle of Hastings, 1066
 
jaxe said:
I'm very curious about whether he'll be seen as a martyr after this is all said and done. Letting him sit in jail, i think would eliminate that possibility, but not stringing him up might get him support. (not to mention all the lefties finding something wrong with his situation in jail.)

I think its also funny how people bring up the "argument" that "...Tony/George killed thousands (sniffle)..." aswell as whine about things like how we ignored the Holocaust, turned back Jewish refugees, ignore Rawandan genocide, ignore the communist bullying/torture/genocide of Tibetans.
And now a poem...

In time of trouble, and in war . . .
God and soldier all men adore.
But when war is over and all things righted . . .
God is forgotten, and the soldier slighted.

-Taken from a soldier's pocket after the Battle of Hastings, 1066

I wonder how many of the men who fought at the Battle of Hastings, could read?
 
jaxe said:
And now a poem...

In time of trouble, and in war . . .
God and soldier all men adore.
But when war is over and all things righted . . .
God is forgotten, and the soldier slighted.
These fairly well known lines are quoted on a number of websites run by present and past members of the US Military. I've found them quoted here, here (where they are erroneously attributed to Kipling), and here. Buffertech.com, at the bottom of this page, says they are from a gravestone in Gibraltar.

Johnny, have you ever thought that this place could be something more than a platform for your facile smart-arsery?
 
... here are a few of the things that Saddam was not allowed to comment upon: sales of chemicals to his Nazi-style regime so blatant - so appalling - that he has been sentenced to hang on a localised massacre of Shias rather than the wholesale gassing of Kurds over which George W Bush and Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara were so exercised when they decided to depose Saddam in 2003 - or was it in 2002? Or 2001? Some of Saddam's pesticides came from Germany (of course). But on 25 May 1994, the US Senate's Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs produced a report entitled "United States Chemical and Biological Warfare-related Dual-use exports to Iraq and their possible impact on the Health Consequences (sic) of the Persian Gulf War".

This was the 1991 war which prompted our liberation of Kuwait, and the report informed Congress about US government-approved shipments of biological agents sent by American companies to Iraq from 1985 or earlier. These included Bacillus anthracis, which produces anthrax; Clostridium botulinum; Histoplasma capsulatum; Brucella melitensis; Clostridium perfringens and Escherichia coli. The same report stated that the US provided Saddam with "dual use" licensed materials which assisted in the development of chemical, biological and missile-system programmes, including chemical warfare agent production facility plant and technical drawings (provided as pesticide production facility plans).

from Robert Fisk at the Independent
 
John Pilger's viewpoint

Let's Now Charge the Accomplices

by John Pilger
In a show trial whose theatrical climax was clearly timed to promote George W. Bush in the American midterm elections, Saddam Hussein was convicted and sentenced to hang. Drivel about "end of an era" and "a new start for Iraq" was promoted by the usual false moral accountants, who uttered not a word about bringing the tyrant's accomplices to justice. Why are these accomplices not being charged with aiding and abetting crimes against humanity?

Why isn't George Bush Sr. being charged?

In 1992, a congressional inquiry found that Bush as president had ordered a cover-up to conceal his secret support for Saddam and the illegal arms shipments being sent to Iraq via third countries. Missile technology was shipped to South Africa and Chile, then "on sold" to Iraq, while US Commerce Department records were falsified. Congressman Henry Gonzalez, chairman of the House of Representatives Banking Committee, said: "[We found that] Bush and his advisers financed, equipped, and succored the monster…."

Why isn't Douglas Hurd being charged? In 1981, as Britain's Foreign Office minister, Hurd traveled to Baghdad to sell Saddam a British Aerospace missile system and to "celebrate" the anniversary of Saddam's blood-soaked ascent to power. Why isn't his former cabinet colleague, Tony Newton, being charged? As Thatcher's trade secretary, Newton, within a month of Saddam gassing 5,000 Kurds at Halabja (news of which the Foreign Office tried to suppress), offered the mass murderer £340 million in export credits.

Why isn't Donald Rumsfeld being charged? In December 1983, Rumsfeld was in Baghdad to signal America's approval of Iraq's aggression against Iran. Rumsfeld was back in Baghdad on March 24, 1984, the day that the United Nations reported that Iraq had used mustard gas laced with a nerve agent against Iranian soldiers. Rumsfeld said nothing. A subsequent Senate report documented the transfer of the ingredients of biological weapons from a company in Maryland, licensed by the Commerce Department and approved by the State Department.

Why isn't Madeleine Albright being charged? As President Clinton's secretary of state, Albright enforced an unrelenting embargo on Iraq, which caused half a million "excess deaths" of children under the age of five. When asked on television if the children's deaths were a price worth paying, she replied, "We think the price is worth it."

Why isn't Peter Hain being charged? In 2001, as Foreign Office minister, Hain described as "gratuitous" the suggestion that he, along with other British politicians outspoken in their support of the deadly siege of Iraq, might find themselves summoned before the International Criminal Court. A report for the UN secretary general by a world authority on international law describes the embargo on Iraq in the 1990s as "unequivocally illegal under existing human rights law," a crime that "could raise questions under the Genocide Convention." Indeed, two past heads of the UN humanitarian mission in Iraq, both of them assistant secretary generals, resigned because the embargo was indeed genocidal. As of July 2002, more than $5 billion-worth of humanitarian supplies, approved by the UN Sanctions Committee and paid for by Iraq, were blocked by the Bush administration, backed by the Blair and Hain government. These included items related to food, health, water, and sanitation.

Above all, why aren't Blair and Bush Jr. being charged with "the paramount war crime," to quote the judges at Nuremberg and, recently, the chief American prosecutor – that is, unprovoked aggression against a defenseless country?

And why aren't those who spread and amplified propaganda that led to such epic suffering being charged? The New York Times reported as fact fabrications fed to its reporter by Iraqi exiles. These gave credibility to the White House's lies, and doubtless helped soften up public opinion to support an invasion. Over here, the BBC all but celebrated the invasion with its man in Downing Street congratulating Blair on being "conclusively right" on his assertion that he and Bush "would be able to take Baghdad without a bloodbath." The invasion, it is reliably estimated, has caused 655,000 "excess deaths," overwhelmingly civilians.

If none of these important people are called to account, there is clearly only justice for the victims of accredited "monsters."

Is that real or fake justice?

Fake.
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=9987
 
Iraq has not been this bad in decades. The occupation is a failure. The various pro-American, pro-Iranian Iraqi governments are failures. The new Iraqi army is a deadly joke. Is it really time to turn Saddam into a martyr? Things are so bad that even pro-occupation Iraqis are going back on their initial ‘WE LOVE AMERICA’ frenzy. Laith Kubba (a.k.a. Mr. Catfish for his big mouth and constant look of stupidity) was recently on the BBC saying that this was just the beginning of justice, that people responsible for the taking of lives today should also be brought to justice. He seems to have forgotten he was one of the supporters of the war and occupation, and an important member of one of the murderous pro-American governments. But history shall not forget Mr. Kubba.

Iraq saw demonstrations against and for the verdict. The pro-Saddam demonstrators were attacked by the Iraqi army. This is how free our media is today: the channels that were showing the pro-Saddam demonstrations have been shut down. Iraqi security forces promptly raided them.Welcome to the new Iraq. Here are some images from the Salahiddin and Zawra channels: <snip>

It’s not about the man- presidents come and go, governments come and go. It’s the frustration of feeling like the whole country and every single Iraqi inside and outside of Iraq is at the mercy of American politics. It is the rage of feeling like a mere chess piece to be moved back and forth at will. It is the aggravation of having a government so blind and uncaring about their peoples needs that they don’t even feel like it’s necessary to go through the motions or put up an act. And it's the deaths. The thousands of dead and dying, with Bush sitting there smirking and lying about progress and winning in a country where every single Iraqi outside of the Green Zone is losing.

Once again… The timing of all of this is impeccable- two days before congressional elections. And if you don’t see it, then I’m sorry, you’re stupid. Let’s see how many times Bush milks this as a ‘success’ in his coming speeches.

A final note. I just read somewhere that some of the families of dead American soldiers are visiting the Iraqi north to see ‘what their sons and daughters died for’. If that’s the goal of the visit, then, “Ladies and gentlemen- to your right is the Iraqi Ministry of Oil, to your left is the Dawry refinery… Each of you get this, a gift bag containing a 3 by 3 color poster of Al Sayid Muqtada Al Sadr (Long May He Live And Prosper), an Ayatollah Sistani t-shirt and a map of Iran, to scale, redrawn with the Islamic Republic of South Iraq. Also… Hey you! You- the female in the back- is that a lock of hair I see? Cover it up or stay home.”

And that is what they died for.
Riverbend
 
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