Sad Brit Nutters Try to Change the World...

[tangentlama]

I guess that's one bit of freedom for an academic that's a step too far

I think Dershowitz has been actively campaigning to have Finkelstein denied everywhere he goes. Dershowitz seem to do this through ENGAGE in the UK and also through various state dept in Israel, but the impetus to boycott the academic Finkelstein, comes from Dershy.

Dershy's puppet Hirshy, in UK ENGAGE, also appears to be an anti-academic-boycotter, but a peacenik in the NYC tells me Hirshy was very cagey when it came to the 'so we're all in opposition to the occupation, yes?' question a couple of years ago when he was visiting Jewish peace groups there, and it seem that on the ENGAGE website, there is some lie about Finkelstein being repeated there and this could actually cause them to be subject to some libel suit, because it isn't true at all. So really I don't understand where ENGAGE stand on academic freedom because they are inconsistent and they never speak out against the Plaut/Kaplan/Israeli Academic Monitor* boycott/attempt to deny tenure ot Israeli and Jewish American academics!

All in all, there are far more sad yammie nutters indulging in sordid, career-ruining academic boycott of Jewish and Israeli academics than Brits , who at the moment, appear to be attempting to have a DEBATE about academic boycott. Unfortunately I am not in this Union, else I would attempt to discuss the FIPP stance and also bring up the current Israeli Academic Monitor and the attempts to silence American Jewish academics by well-funded pro-occupation advocates.

(*see Muzzlewatch on Kaplan of Israeli Academic Monitor - he is a nasty piece of work: http://www.muzzlewatch.com/?cat=33 -)

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: Do you see the "Palestinians" at all as having caused at least part of their current dilemna or do you see it as entirely caused by the Israelis?

Laptop:"Just the fact that the 'Boycott Move' was reported in the Jerusalem Post...": It means absolutely nothing. The Post is the largest English paper in Israel and the largest English language site associated with things Israeli online. Naturally it reports anything and everyone remotely associated with our country. The mundane is often included.It also makes the American dailies here in NYC, aka "tabloids" so it really is not saying much as to its importance. I think that most just like to marvel at the bizarre, or feel more secure looking at the less intelligent, something like that.

Tangent: "There seems to be a need for research into the worker solidarity or lack there of between Zionist and Arab/"Palestinian"...":It has been done to death.
I will offer a short list...


"Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine" by Zachary Lockman, Berkely: U of C Press, 1996

"The Formative Years of the Israeli Labour Party: The Organization (sic) of Power, 1919 -1930, Sage Studies in the Twentieth Century History No. 4, Beverly Hills Ca: Sage, 1976

Those 2 are great with general infromation but if you would like more in depth reading, as in the Histradrut and its inner battles over inclusion and exclusion of Israeli Arabs, please let me know.

If instead you are merely seeking insight into the cooperative economy between Israelis and "Palestinians" ("Palestinian" of course denoting those Arabs of the "WB",Gaza, and the "Palestinian Disapora") alos let me know. I have plenty of books to recommend. Here is one just in case.

"The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development" by Sara Roy,Washington DC, 1995

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: I was not , honestly, aware at all of any kind of organised movement of that nature here in America. In fact, as most know, I was a trade unionist here in my day job (still am considered one I suppose even though I am officialy retired). I was aware that when the second to last British Iniative was in the making they sent out requests for solidarity and got strongly worded responses from all umbrella organisations here, including the one I am in, LIUNA under the then AFLCIO. It was very poorly received and some of the strongest language I have ever witnessed in official corresponance was employed.

Now the West Coast of America is different entirely and I COULD imagine that they might have some kind of aolidarity with it given their completely left bent (hard left, those Longshoremen are a different beast altogether).

I will research I suppose, later today (I hope) the information you have posted on American iniatives.

"Oxford, etc. as 'bastions of hate'.": OF course the schools are not awamped with such people or thoughts but to be honest, I would imagine it is like Columbia with which I have had personal experience and for the life of me could not care if it fell to pieces this afternoon. Academic Freedom is what it is and I respect the fact that if I wish to contnue enjoying my own point of view, I have to allow the same for others. IF this motion somehow passes both the constituiency AND Brtitish LaW then I would reapply my phrasing. IF all Jews are required to answer any questions about any type of personal views, it surely deserves the title.

Ungrateful: "Conferences where Israeli authorities prevented two 'Palestinian' researchers from attending...": The only people that are ever prevented from anything are people with Security Portfolios of a certain rating. In other words, would the UK permit a person who say, says all whites should die, attend a foreing conference if they could help it? Groups like HAMAS, PRC, PIJ, al Akhsa, and a few others actually say this about all Jews (not Zionists but Jews as a whole). In addition, certain academics (not only in Israel) are guilty of membership in illegal organisations (illegal under International Law, as in HAMAS,et al). Ergo, it is anot an attempt to stifle academic debate, we have that every day of the week in Israel (you should visit our K'nesset one day) but a policy aimed at stifling terrorism. Big difference.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: "Has its roots in a myth Rachamim did not begin.": What then is mythological? Every thing listed is as I claimed. Microsoft is not an Israeli company by the Microsoft team that developed it and most of the subsequent editions IS. Pentium, primarily owneed by a Jew (and Shoah survivor) who is an American citizen but again, the team that develops tthem is Israeli, and so on and so on. It is one and the same. Israeli technology.

To use it to call for a boycott of Israel is silly (put in civil fashion).

"Judith Butler equating Checkpoints with Academic Freedom.": That is the stupidest piece I have seen in a while. Surely the UK has dragnets for intoxicated drivers, or roadblocks when important personalities are going to and fro. Do they stifle Academic Freedom as well? Fact is, Checkpoints in Israel exist because SOME "Palestinians" CHOOSE to bomb Israelis. Stop the bombing, say goodbye to Internal Checkpoints (Borders are another issue entirely and just about every nation I can recall has them). The issue has always been in the hands of the alleged victim and the victim here, "Palestinians" as a whole, refuse to stop bombing us. Until then, I will laugh at people like that ridiculous Ms. Butler and know that my children are safer .


Spion: I applaud your rationality on the issue. However, in terms of an economic boycott, it would never really effect Israel given the way the economy is structured (that is to say IF people would even engage in such nonsense). IT is technology based and technology is not open to the whims of the "Save the Whales" crowd. A tiny portion MIGHT be effected but take a look on your store shelves and see how many Israeli products your local grocer stock (at most maybe Yaffa Oranges in the produce section).

See, our economy was entirely state controlled well up into the 1980s and it as a result that it has concentrated on those areas least susceptible to the whims of a world that has not always treated the Jews with love.

For those who think the preceeding is a load of bullocks , take a gander at our economy in depth and see what I am talking about.

If one was talking about stopping certain imports, yes, it might be short term effective on Israelis as a whole but again, they do not call Israelis "sabras" for nothing. A war every 7 years and change on average and daily terrorism has a way of toughening up a society.

 

[rachamim18]

JHE: Of course you are absolutely right. This is a world where Jimmy Carter says the Israeli Blockade of Gaza is the worst human rights crime of our time. It is an age where British Trade Unionists see fit to ask every single Jew their personal thoughts and then decide their woprthiness for interaction based on those thoughts. It is an age where the HAMAS Charter calls for genocide of every Jew on Earth and it is the Jews who are cast as demons with 673 years out of the Deatch Camps. The world amazes me but youJHE have hit it dead on the head.

Tangent: Sorry, but it is what it is. Good old Jew Hating and one can dress iot up in Emperor's Clothes and not make a ding or a dent. Words will not change it. The reaction to the suggestion even makes Spion question its propriety so that we can see even people on the opposite end of the political spectrum (from myself) see something inherently wrong with the proposal.

Spion:Finkelstein is barred because of illegal contacts with a State Enemey, Hezbollah. In Israel we have academics that make Finkelstein look like Ronald Regan. Ever hear of the late Yisroel Shahak? He maintained that Jews pray to the devil and that we curse Christains everytime we pass one of their graveyeards and he was never barred. Security Dossiers get one barred, not one's ideas.

 

[Ungrateful]

tangentlama: One question - did anyone apply to the Israeli Military to ask where these conferences - which Palestinians were prevented from attending - should be held, in order that all the delegates might be able to attend or were they held in Britain (or elsewhere) ? I could do with some more information, please.

rachamim18: ....The only people that are ever prevented from anything are people with Security Portfolios of a certain rating.

In answer to you both -- the conferences were both held in Britain, so I don't think the organisers contacted the IDF in advance to see how it would fit in with their plans (they probably also failed to contact the RAF, USAF and the Zimbabwean armed forces too... ). As far as I know, the academics were not specifically targeted -- i.e. blacklisted -- but were simply denied movement alongside other Palestinians as part of the day-to-day Israeli military occupation of the country at that time. Closure of borders, airspace, etc.

 

[Ungrateful]

There are more than 190 countries in the world.

How many, and which, other countries are to be boycotted?

It can't just be Israel that's going to be boycotted, can it?

It is? I see. Israel must be the worst country in the world.

Death to the Zionist entity! Inshallah

I agree JHE that Israel might not be the worst place on earth, or have the worst human rights record (it certainly doesn't). But it is:

• one with which I, and many others in britain have a direct a personal relationship with.

• it is a major geo-political ally of our government.

• it is the centre for three of the four major religions which form the basis of many people's identities in this country

.

• Its policies often have the tacit or overt approval of our political and civil leaders. Despite Rachamim's patriotic stance, I'm sure knows that without Israel being the largest per capita recipient of Western (mainly US) aid over the last 25 years, its economy would not have survived.

• Its social/ethnic schisms have a worldwide impact as well as local ones

This is not really the case with Sudan, Uzbikestan or other countries who equally deserve critical examination, and with whom I would listen to arguments for and against a boycott.

JHE: Of course you are absolutely right. This is a world where Jimmy Carter says the Israeli Blockade of Gaza is the worst human rights crime of our time. It is an age where British Trade Unionists see fit to ask every single Jew their personal thoughts and then decide their woprthiness for interaction based on those thoughts. It is an age where the HAMAS Charter calls for genocide of every Jew on Earth and it is the Jews who are cast as demons with 673 years out of the Deatch Camps. The world amazes me but youJHE have hit it dead on the head.

Rachamim, again you do your side a huge disservice by your hyperbole and irrelevance. No one hear is defending Hamas's genocidal charter (I've looked through the debate), and let's face it they have no chance of implementing it, so it seems fairly irrelevant to our debate. But let's suppose that they did have the wealth, the institutional power, the military and international support (heaven forbid) and they started doing it, I take it you would support a boycott of Hamas by British academics? It wouldn't be 'sad' or 'nutty' then? Israel does have the power to dispossess, oppress and humiliate. So it's not irrelevant for UK academics to ask -- 'are any of our links helping in this dangerous and unjust process?'

Incidentally no British trade union has a policy of which you write (unless you know otherwise, please provide evidence).

And whilst you have invoked Godwin's Law -- it might be the horrific example of a militarised western(ised) state commiting genocide that prompts people to prevent similar calamities. It's a matter of 'never again' not 'never again to us'.

 

[rachamim18]

Ungrateful: No, the organisers need not check with Israel on anything except ing that had wished to help certain attendees attend knowing that they would most like be barred due to High Security Profiles.

Israel still retains the right of ultimate control over the "WB" and Gaza in terms of travel, even Gazans via Rafah Crossing.

Gaza is a different issue but those "Palestinians" living on the "WB" do ned to apply to travel anywhere but foreign travel is not dnied UNLESS one of two things are taking place: I) Applicant is applying for travel to a nation technically at war with Israel, or a nation considered to be a security risk...and...II) The Applicants has a High Security Rating.

"Palestinians" are not dnied anything in a blanket manner and can apply for any reasonable movement above and byond their day to day local activities.

Only Gaza's Borders are permanantly closed. Even there however, a Gazan can seek a Humanitarian Pass (as many do) in order to xcorss Gazan Borders for medical or other pressing needs.

 

[rachamim18]

Ungrateful: "Without Foreign (financial )AID, Israel's economy would have copplased within the last 25 years.": Israel's economy has nothing to do with my patriotic fervor. The data is freely available. It has an economy that was fully self supporting in 1960, 7 years before the American Gravy Train began.

American money is gratefully received by our govt. but to be quite honest, it is not needed. Many within our nation hope to see it end as it was schedualed to do before the Iraqi Pipeline deal (decrease in increments, not one fall swoop).

I would suggest, kindly, that you really research this one. I have talked often about this so for the sake of brevity, unless asked again, will not provide a long list of data concerning this basic truth.

"Its social/ethnic schisms have a worldwide impact.": OK, why? Why should it have any impact outside of the Arab World? Why should the UK give a rat's a#% what happens there any more than it obsesses over the Congo?

Listening to the BBC World Report yesterday, the number one headline was Defence Minister Barak's speech on Olmert needing to step aside in order to battle the corruption charges that he is facing on a perennial basis. The second biggest headline was about the possible (at that point) abolition of the monarchy in Nepal. Why would a basically meaningless (if you understand even limitedly the Israeli political landscape) speech by a third level politician in a tiny Middle-Eastern nation rate more than the end of a monarchy?

The world is obsessed with the subject, for better or worse but I do know that many critics "of only Zionism" use this politically correct cloak to slip some stock prejudice and bias under the door.

"Israel is a major geopolitical ally of the UK.": The UK is also allied with Canada, Ireland, and Jamaica among a very large and electic group of nations. Does Jamaican news figure even a quarter as prominently? I mean, there might be more Jamaicans in the UK than Jews, certainly a demographic large enough to support news devoted to it, and yet noone is creating a Jamaican Forum and badmouthing Manley,etc.

"IT is the center of 3 of 4 of the largest religion.": Actually only 2, and only one is absolutely tied to it, the Jewish faith. Islam holds Jerusalem as home to its 3rd holiest shrine, Christianity is centered in the homes of various churches....Ethiopian in a hoply island in Ethiopia, Catholics in Rome, and so on. This is also ignoring that these 3 religions combined are the not the faith of the majority of Earth's people.

Even if it were, why focus on politics and partisanship instead of the faiths themselves?

 

[rachamim18]

Ungrateful:"HAMAS' Charter is beyond discussing because they could not implement it.": First, let me remind you and others that many, many people said the same on the Nazi Platform before they grabbed the election in one outlying district and swept on ommentum all the way to the Recihstag.

The HAMAS Charter seems just as fantastic, does it not? At this point actually people seem to be turning the other way in the areas in question but just as the wind blows in Fatah's favour and America is training them as we (Israel) arm them, HAMAS could still stun the world as it did both when it won an illegal election (illegal because by both International AND PA Law the organisation should never have been allowed to run) and regain some ofts lost stature...or conversely just purh another coup as they also did in Gaza...only thios time for both Gaza and the "WB."

"Noone hear is defending the HAMAS Charter.": Actually at least 2 people have although one is now banned (Moono). I will leave the other admirer nameless because the last time I stated this he almost had a coronary attack despite telling us that the HAMAS so called "Suicide Bombers" are merely "Heroes of the Resistance." U75 is not a monolithic entity by any means. That is a good thing as why would we wish (any of us) to particpate in a one sided forum?


"For argumentive sake let us say HAMAS COULD make a go of it and form an entity that would implement that Charter..."Surely Rachamim would support an Academic Ban onn HAMAS?": Nope, not at all. As stated, Academia is one of two ways (the other being Art) that can bring about the greatest amount of change in the shortest amount of time.

Ironically, HAMAS has institued its own Academic and Artistic Boycotts by setting bombs in front of art galleries , computr cafes, and Christain schools of all levels of education. This trend, largely unreported in Western Media, has grown exponetially in the last 6 months so that it is certainly a growing a trend.

"It is ok for UK Academics to ask pointed and personal questions.": NO, it certainly IS NOT, EVER. Freedom of thought should be any academic union's chief aim after arganising. Individual Israelis have no power to jhumiliate anything or anyone, not any more than you as a Brit have to do the Arabs of Basra...or the Catholics (formerly) of Northern Ireland.

The idea behind free and unfettered academic change revolves around the seemly and the unpalatable and hoping to make people question long held questions and hopefully build upon them.


"No British Trade Union has any policy as described by Rachamim.": Sorry, a whole lot of information is being exchanged here and my English might be lacking. Do you mean my claim that not only Israelis but all JEWS will be questioned individually? That is reported in the article I referenced in my original post and can be seen online in the Jerusalem Post if you scroll towards the bottom.

That actually is one of two parts that Union counsle has advised is blatantly illegal.

"G-dwin's Law.": Have to ask you to be a tad bit more specific, specifically the part about a "western(ised) state committing a genocide.": Please explain just what state you are referring to.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Grandma Death]

Actually at least 2 people have although one is now banned (Moono)

I know its difficult for you but will you please stop repeating this lie. Moono resigned-he wasn't banned. Its been pointed out to you already by several other posters.

 

[Ungrateful]

Hia Rachamim - quite a lot to go through -- so I'll do my best to answer your questions, and tidy up a few misconceptions.

"G-dwin's Law.": Have to ask you to be a tad bit more specific, specifically the part about a "western(ised) state committing a genocide.": Please explain just what state you are referring to.

Godwin's law -- a formal fallacy in which inappropriate analogies are drawn to the ultimate evil (Hitler's Germany) in order to curtail debate -- to save time check out -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law -- because the event compared is usually nothing like the Holocaust, the analogy fails, and just demeans the actual horrific events. Seeing as you raised it, one counter-method is to show how weak the analogy by demonstrating that it can support the other side. Here fear of a Holocaust might not mean supporting everything the Israeli state does, but fighting the ethnic-cleansing and bigotry of that state.

Ungrateful:"HAMAS' Charter is beyond .....

As has been pointed out repeatedly -- no-one is supporting Hamas or its anti-semitic policies on this thread.

Nope, not at all. As stated, Academia is one of two ways (the other being Art) that can bring about the greatest amount of change in the shortest amount of time. .....

I must admit I was surprised by this -- does this mean you are in favour of formal academic links with the Hamas government? If so does that mean you don't support the banning from Israel of Finklestein because of his tenuous link to Hizzbollah? What about the denial of Fullbright scholarships to Gazan students -- will you be protesting against this too?

Freedom of thought should be any academic union's chief aim after arganising......

I quite agree -- the question is what do you do to a country and its institutions that deny that freedom to others?

Individual Israelis have no power to humiliate anything or anyone, not any more than you as a Brit have to do the Arabs of Basra...or the Catholics (formerly) of Northern Ireland.......

I disagree, universities including my own regretably are involved both positively and negatively in both these conflicts. It boasts for instance of its help for the Aerospace Defence industries. And I would not been disappointed if others put pressure on my employer to prevent it assisting in such activities. Israeli univesities, as it won't surprise you to hear are involved in defence research projects and training of technical staff for similar strategic goals.

"No British Trade Union has any policy as described by Rachamim.": Sorry, a whole lot of information is being exchanged here and my English might be lacking. Do you mean my claim that not only Israelis but all JEWS will be questioned individually? That is reported in the article I referenced in my original post and can be seen online in the Jerusalem Post if you scroll towards the bottom.

I'm confused it was you who said British Unions who question all Jews (not Israelis) in post 30-05-2008 09:56, not I. I said that not only did I doubt any such policy existed, I doubt one has even been formally debated, so I asked for evidence. The only evidence you can give is not from a British trade union (who usually list all motions discussed at conference, and all policy procedures, so if the policy you suggested had been proposed it would be easy to find), but instead cite The Jerusalem Post. I think this demonstrates the danger of relying on secondary sources, especially one with such twisted political positions (and formerly owned by 2 separate crooks) as The Jerusalem Post.

 

[rachamim18]

Ungrateful: I certainly do appreciate the time and effort taken in clearing up all those points but I have to first say, I am quite familiar with the phrase and concept behind "G-dwin's Law." My perpexlity was and is still based upon the fact that you apply it in the sense that I, as apartisan for Israel, am the offfneding party and that Holocaust Analogies offend me just so. Indeed,, it is the converse. Israel has never engaged in Institutional Ethnic Cleansing, that is to say a state, military, or other official policy of the practice.

I actually hear this said about Israel quite abit, in fact am just now reading Norman Finkelstein's horrid book on "Holocaust Industry" and have to say that most people have it completely backwards. Fopr example, Israel won reparations not based on the number of Jews killed, so that the numbner might be conceivably exaggerated but on the number of SURVIVING Jews from a given region.This is just one of the many huge and misleading fallacies associated with the event.

As for people comparing Israeli anything to Nazi policies, that is just below atrocious that it does not even rise to base behavoir.

"Noone is supporting HAMAS or its Charter in this thread.": After you have added "THIS THREAD" I certainly agree whole heartedly.

"Is Rachamim in favour of academic and artistic links with HAMAS?": ABSOLUTELY NOT. I have always held that it is counter intuitive to try and isolate the two areas where change can be most easily and quickly effected but just as counter intuitive to try and reason with people who believe your entire nation is a group trying to master the whole world and enslave it, as HAMAS teaches its adherents. However, HAMAS is an organisation, Gaza is a place. Gazans not adhering to HAMAS SHOULD be welcomed with arms wide open in artistic and academic exchanges..

Since HAMAS Law prohibits any Jews from living in Gaza, we still could accept GAZAN students in exchange programs and I for one hope we do although to be honest, the situation will come to a head much quicker than any such program could be created and implemented.

I am not at liberty to discuss SOME things but if the current Egyptian iniative on a Cease Fire does not work, HAMAS will be facing its toughest situation to date and that precludes any sort of constructive minded iniative afterwards.

"So does this support then mean that I am against the banning (of 10 years) of the American born Jew Norman Finkelstein because of his terrorist ties.": No. There is no difference between Finkelstein and a PIJ mortar team member. Both seek to totally destroy Israel and no nation should subject itself to a virus.


Finkelstein with his age and stature among the so called "Left" is seen as an icon among people of that ilk, and as such his connections to terrorist groups actually serve to inspire terrorism. A 17 year old from Beit Hanoun or Rafah has grown up in an environment to which he was not offered options of whether or not to be there, to associate with those around him, and so forth. IF that 17 year old has been indoctrinated as so many Gazan youth have been, and now also holds that all Jews must die then they are of the same category as Finkelstein. IF they are not HAMAS robotos, I see it as a largely different situation.

I think that if there were wiling participants from Gaza, (Gaza being a place under boycott and HAMAS being an organisation there causing this boycott), then Israel should do all it can to asccomodate them.

"Denial of Fullbrights to Gazans.": IF said Gazan is unaffiliated with any illegal terrorist organisation (HAMAS, PIJ, and PRC) I hope they do win the scholarship. Some very deserving students are struggling under horrendous circumstances there and against all odds have managed to reach that point. How tragic would it be to then stop them from progressing further?

"What do you do to a country that denies academic freedom to others.": I would not know because if you have any familiarity with the Israeli esucation system then you certainly know that is not the came in Israel. If there are still countries like that, and with N. Korea and Mynammar I imagine there just might be at least 2 still in existence (although come to think of it, when in Cambodia this year I did see N. Korean exchange students)...I would think it is wrong.

"Your university.": See, now we are talking about a subject separated by a very fine line, or a group of subjects. Divestment? that is a different beast. Academically assisted programs geared to the Defence and ?Industrial Complex? These are all worthwhile subjects but they are not addressed with blanket boycotts.

"Israeli universities involved in Defence related endeavours...": Well then, if a union was disturbed by this (and in my mind should not be) they should concentrate their efforts in this one area...not denying ALL Israeli students the chance to learn or expand their horizons. My degree is an Anthropological discipline in Botany, why should I have been banned from corresponding with a British Academc Institution? The whole idea smacks of bias.

"Proof that all Jews will be asked.": Actually, in the article they discussed the counsle for the union and counsel' reaction to THAT proposition, as in it is totally illegal,etc. I will however look for corroborating proof to back that up and hopefully continue in that vein as that is one piece that truly distrubs me (actually the whole idea is horrid but that takes the cake as they say).

 

[tangentlama]

One thing that needs to be realised, it that there exists a catch-22 situation whereby only a peace treaty between Israel-Palestine can bring a complete normalisation of academic relations - until then, Israeli and Palestinian academics can usually only meet at overseas conventions, and if the IDF forbid movement of Palestinian academic out of the Occupied Territories because they are Palestinian, then this cannot occur.

Despite the ongoing restrictions, Israeli and Palestinian academics are finding a way to work together on issues even though politic and military impinge on academic freedoms, but not without outside support and funding and not without countless setbacks.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-archaeology30-2008may30,0,1100506.story?page=1

 

[rachamim18]

No, not true. If a "Palestinian" including these 7 Fulbright Scholars seek to leave Gaza, the inviting institution, whether it be Israeli or foreign, need only contact the Prime Minister's Office where they have a specific liason on the issue. One of the Scholars had a secondary placement at as Kibbutz (the Gazan who was studying Environmental Impact)

I will still look for the corroborating evidence on the boycott motion asking that every Jew seeking British Academic cooperation,etc. on their political views and will hopefully be able to shed more light on it either way.

 

[tangentlama]

The issue of academic freedom in Israel/Palestine today is not just limited to Israel not letting critics into the country. It is also not letting Palestinians out of the country to study, as a story just posted on the NY Times website explains:

A letter was sent by e-mail to the students on Thursday telling them of the cancellation. Abdulrahman Abdullah, 30, who had been hoping to study for an M.B.A. at one of several American universities on his Fulbright, was in shock when he read it.

“If we are talking about peace and mutual understanding, it means investing in people who will later contribute to Palestinian society,” he said. “I am against Hamas. Their acts and policies are wrong. Israel talks about a Palestinian state. But who will build that state if we can get no training?”

Some Israeli lawmakers, who held a hearing on the issue of student movement out of Gaza on Wednesday, expressed anger that their government was failing to promote educational and civil development in a future Palestine given the hundreds of students who had been offered grants by the United States and other Western governments.

“This could be interpreted as collective punishment,” complained Rabbi Michael Melchior, chairman of the Parliament’s education committee, during the hearing. “This policy is not in keeping with international standards or with the moral standards of Jews, who have been subjected to the deprivation of higher education in the past. Even in war, there are rules.” Rabbi Melchior is from the Meimad Party, allied with Labor.

The committee asked the government and military to reconsider the policy and get back to it within two weeks. But even if the policy is changed, the seven Fulbright grantees in Gaza are out of luck for this year. Their letters urged them to reapply next year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/world/middleeast/30gaza.html?hp.

Specifically, Israel will not allow students in Gaza to leave the Strip to accept Fulbright Awards to study in the US. Our own government, which gives Israel more than $3 billion in aid every year, apparently doesn't have the juice to convince the Israeli government to allow it to let a few dozen Palestinian students to leave to study here, despite the fact that Israel's actions are clear violations of international law, which prevents occupying powers from obstructing education in occupied territory (see Jonathan Thompson Horowitz, "The Right to Education in Occupied Territories," Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law (2004), 7: 233-277). Of course, for over a generation the occupation authorities have prevented students in the West Bank from traveling only a few miles to get to Birzeit University, so this is nothing new, but its illegal and immoral nonetheless, and the US government should show a bit of spine and force the issue.

http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/50872.html

 

[tangentlama]

However, after The New York Times published a report on the issue on Friday, U.S. officials said they were redoubling their efforts to get the Israeli exit visas for the students.

Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs William Burns, the third-ranking U.S. diplomat, spoke to the Israeli ambassador to the United States on Friday to emphasize the U.S. desire to see the matter resolved, the State Department said.

"Frankly, a decision to let people that have been vetted for what is perhaps the most prestigious foreign educational program run by the United States ... it ought to be falling off a log for them to be able to do this," said U.S. State Department spokesman Tom Casey.

"I expect that we'll have some positive outcome for this in the not-too-distant future," he told reporters.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel said a few of the Fulbright students had recently left Gaza through the Erez crossing but Casey said he could not verify this. It was not immediately possible obtain independent confirmation.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/washington/politics-israel-palestinians-rice.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

[Ungrateful]

I will still look for the corroborating evidence on the boycott motion asking that every Jew seeking British Academic cooperation,etc. on their political views and will hopefully be able to shed more light on it either way.

What sort of research time, are we looking at, because I'll pop back here to see if you've found it? If you do find proof that such a motion making all Jewish members explain their politics ('but all JEWS will be questioned individually'), then I will personally join in a campaign against the union imposing such a bigotted restriction on them just because of their ethinic/religious identity. However, if you don't find any evidence, maybe you could publicly admit your error and in the meantime drop this accusation against the British trade union movement in general and the UCU in particular, until you do find some substantiating evidence. Fair?

"So does this support then mean that I am against the banning (of 10 years) of the American born Jew Norman Finkelstein because of his terrorist ties.": No. There is no difference between Finkelstein and a PIJ mortar team member. Both seek to totally destroy Israel and no nation should subject itself to a virus.

So I take it that a) you do believe in academic boycotts, but only against those who want to see the elimination of the Israeli state; b) You honestly can't see the difference between a moderately contraversial historian and someone launching missiles at civilians. This either suggests you should avoid Humanities seminars for your own safety, or the IDF are missing a trick and instead of dropping tens of thousands of cluster bombs into residential areas of Lebanon they should merely have sent some tapes of Ilan Pappe or Lenni Bremner

 

[Grandma Death]

However, if you don't find any evidence, maybe you could publicly admit your error

You're new here aren't you-either that or you aren't aware of rach and his little foibles

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: As I told you, there is a specific process for those seeking to study abroad. There is no such policy to keep students from leaving Gaza, UNLESS they personally have Dossiers and not many do.In the case in question, the insititutions did not go through the proper channels. I do not know why there was a problem because last years scholars left without a hitch.

Ungrateful: I just came home now and expect to look into it btween this evening (it being about 4 PM here now?) and tomorrow. I applaud you takeing that iniative if I do find the corroborating evidence but why would I do what you request when my opinion was based on the verbatim quote in an article of the Jerusalem Post online? You might pose that idea to the article's author, Johnny Paul, the UK correspondant for the Post. Again though, I will be looking into it.

"Rachamim believes in academic boycotts against those wishing to destroy the State of Israel." No,no,no! I am for boycotting TERRORISTS. I do not believe individuals who feel bombs best settle differences should be exposed to any other inncoent socieities.

"Moderately contoversial academic and someone who fires missiles at civilains.": Of course there is a difference, but when said academic assists said terrrorists, a new dynamic is in place.

As for the srcastic aside about Cluster Bombs, you might want to remember that the first party to employ them, in Lebanon, was Hezbollah. The difference though, was that Israel aimed at bonafide military objectives while Hezbollah just aimed south.

 

[frogwoman]

You know Finkelstein is actually secretly a Palestinian Rachamim? His real name is Nur al-Fahaq. The only reason he changed his name to Norman Finkelstein was so that he could use his priveleged position to spread Palestinian Propaganda and then corrupt one of OUR WOMEN with his dirty Arab blood.

 

[Ungrateful]

Ungrateful: I just came home now and expect to look into it btween this evening (it being about 4 PM here now?) and tomorrow. I applaud you takeing that iniative if I do find the corroborating evidence but why would I do what you request when my opinion was based on the verbatim quote in an article of the Jerusalem Post online? You might pose that idea to the article's author, Johnny Paul, the UK correspondant for the Post. Again though, I will be looking into it.

Hia Rachamim18 Its now 5pm UK time the following day (I'm not certain of the time where you are though). Have you found primary sources to support your allegation against British trade unions (and UCU in particular) that they were about to, or are willing to, or even discussed a conference motion in support of, the idea that they target specifically Jewish members concerning their political beliefs? If you have -- I'm here to help in the campaign against them.

If not, maybe you can hourably retract. It wouldn't be entirely your fault, if you based the slur on the basis of what the Jerusalem Post tells you. Though 1) this shows the danger of relying on a single secondary source; 2) it is especially poor research practice when the source is as unreliable as The Jerusalem Post.

If you are unable to substantiate their claim, then you would be remiss of you to continue to hold the undefended view in the light of the evidence (no actual motion being found). It would be quite improper for false allegations of anti-semitism to be propulgated, as it devalues genuine cases.

 

[rachamim18]

Forgwoman: I do not find such talk comical in the least. Jewish blood cannot be "polluted," least of all by fellow Semites whom most Jews feel a much greater affinity towards than any "white" man.

Ungrateful: Yews I have actually. It seems that when passed, for reasons of legality, or rather illegality it was phrased just a tad bit different...as in a "suggestion" to members" rather than an inscribed bylaw. It is in Section 25:7 and it can be reviewed via this link:

www.imemc.org/article/55191

IF I had been wrong, and obviously am not, I would have stated that by your prompting I had found it so and again would have explained that it was because of a perfectly believable article in the Jerusalem Post. The Post by the way is the largest English periodical in Israel and is well regarded as mainstream media all around the world, it stories often being picked up in all corners.

I am certainly interested as to why you find the periodical so disreputable. Also, I has seen concurrent articles corroborating it in 3 other Hebrew language dailiers publishesd the same day as well as in the PA mouthpiece but then when you asked for corrorborating evidence hardly felt any of those would have qualified, not by a long shot.

I regularly cataloug English, Hebrew, Yiddish, and Arabic media with regards to the region. In fact I do so on a daily basis (it takes up 4 to 5 hours of any given day and drives my wife insane) but then I am an ex organiser for the leadership party in Israel and do like to keep current to the point of anal retentiveness.

 

[rachamim18]

, which ius 108 PMAhhhh, silly me. Knowing how most of our fellow Horum members will be much too busy to follow a proffered hyperlink, I should have at least offered up a synopsis of the offending material. I will do them that favour nopw.

The key phrase that has been added for sake of legality, is "be asked."

The offending part?"......Discuss the occupation with individuals and institutions concerned including Israeli colleagues with whom they are collaborating."

Why the he$& should anyone be questioned with regard to their personal political views. Dialog is great but not when mandatory nor when directed by uniopn bylaws...or rather SUGGESTED by same bylaws. Were I to finish my graduate degree (one day I hope to) and so with the assitance of a British institution, what right would anyone have to ask me a dman thing about anything having to do with my country's politics or policies. The whole idea smacks of Nuremberg Era nonsense.

 

[Spion]

Your OP, citing the J Post says:

Anti-Boycott Activists say that the Motion demands that Jewish and Israeli Academics explain their politics before normal contact ensues.

The motion itself says:

colleagues be asked to consider the moral and political implications of educational links with Israeli institutions, and to discuss the occupation with individuals and institutions concerned, including Israeli colleagues with whom they are collaborating

I'm sure you can see they are not the same thing. It's quite clear the J Post, in reporting uncritically the erroneoous views of 'Anti-Boycott Activists', is trying to slip in an untruth.

I think that answers the question of the trustworthiness of the J Post too.

The resolutions you link to do nothing more than call for discussion, engage in fact finding and twinning with Pal universities (except for the case of Ariel, into which it calls for 'investigation'). There is no boycott call there. Your hysteria, exaggeration and arrogance does your cause a terrible disservice.

And your OP title 'Sad Brit nutters try to change the world' was massively wide of the mark - it was actually a case of 'Quite restrained Brit trades unionists call for discussion and fact finding about Israeli occupation'.

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: First, you missed the curcial piece about how the passed notion was chanerd at the behest of the legal teamo advising the Union on this push.Additionally, the motion pretty much claims the same theme only without the offencive "mandatory" invcluded. The intent is still there. The language is clear and above and beryond that you can see the Union overreaching its intellectual bounds and tryinmg to play thought police. Defend it all thast you wish but manyy others, alot more than Rachamim, see it for what it is.


It is obvious by both your tone and your lanaguage that you have never bothered to read either this years' origianal motion of any of the preceeding ones dating to 2004, when the first was proffered. Do us bot a favour andf take a peak and still see if you can maintain that haughty position.


Any union mtion that asks adherents to questions anyone's private politics is a wackjob, put politely .

 

[Spion]

Any union mtion that asks adherents to questions anyone's private politics is a wackjob, put politely .

Can you show us one that does?

 

[Spion]

All about the proposed boycott here http://www.bricup.org.uk/index.html

Some of the cases under the 'Israel universities' link are quite interesting

 

[Ungrateful]

, which ius 108 PMAhhhh, silly me. Knowing how most of our fellow Horum members will be much too busy to follow a proffered hyperlink, I should have at least offered up a synopsis of the offending material. I will do them that favour nopw.

The key phrase that has been added for sake of legality, is "be asked."

The offending part?"......Discuss the occupation with individuals and institutions concerned including Israeli colleagues with whom they are collaborating."

Why the he$& should anyone be questioned with regard to their personal political views. Dialog is great but not when mandatory nor when directed by uniopn bylaws...or rather SUGGESTED by same bylaws. Were I to finish my graduate degree (one day I hope to) and so with the assitance of a British institution, what right would anyone have to ask me a dman thing about anything having to do with my country's politics or policies. The whole idea smacks of Nuremberg Era nonsense.

Rachamim18 you seem to have committed at least three fallacies here. As Spion rightly points out the link you gave gives absolutely no textual support for your statement that 'all Jews are required to answer any questions about any type of personal views' - which is part of your original claim. Indeed your next statement actually recognises it -- it would be against the law for a Union to do so. You then commit the fallacy of shifting critria of evidence, almsost to the point of outright rejection of falsifiability criteria. So you misread evidence, and then use evidence which falsifies your claim as supportive. Which suggests no contrary evidence would be accepted as capable of falsifying your claim. Which makes your propsition meaningless.

It would be a bit like saying 'Rachmaim19 is a a filthy paedophile' and every time you ask for proof I fail to provide it, and everytime you show evidence against such a horrific assertion (such as no convictions, statements in support of you by loving family) I simply retort well 'that's just what a paedophile would say - it proves it'.

You are also guilty of the fallacy of misunderstanding the evidence of absence as absence of evidence; and possibility argument ad ignoratum as well.

, The Post by the way is the largest English periodical in Israel and is well regarded as mainstream media all around the world, it stories often being picked up in all corners.

The next fallacy is the ad populum, just because the Jerusalem Post is most-read English language paper in Israel (against, if I remember correctly, one other) it does not make it right. After all The Sun is the UK's most popular newspaper, it hardly has a spotless record of reliability... and of course Al Jazeera in English is much more popular than the Jerusalem Post, so I suppose you'll opt for that as the most reliable. The only papers, by-and-large, that hold The Post in high regard are other members of the same newspaper group (which also have a similar political line). But lets imagine that The Post was reliable, that doesn't mean it is always right. Anyone can get things wrong. So when checking its claims, if the counter-evidence out weighs evidence in support -- as it does it here overwhelmingly, it is irrational to still hold that position.

Like I've said earlier, I have my doubts about an outright boycott, but your arguments actually weaken the case against the proposition, should it ever be put forward as a motion. It makes me wonder, are you actually a highly sophisticated anti-Zionist, deliberatley caricaturing Revisionist Zionism in order to ridicule it?

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: "The diference between my original post and what is now being billed as the Unions Motion." In the interim, and even in my most recent posts here I have mentioned that due to legality issues they were forced to change the wording. In the end, nicities do not change the essence of the Motion, do they?


Ungrateful: the motion as it has been passed "ASKS that union members DISCUSS the personal politics of any Jeiwsh or Israeli correspondants seeking to to cooperate,etc. with the British academic." I think that says it in a nutshell. The original wording though is just as the Post reported it and in fact this motion is a rehashing of 4 different annual concaves where this nonsense has been raised.

This is not a new issue off of the shelf but a very old one that to the cargrin of the instigators has been stymied at many junctures by the British legal system.

I do not see where I have given any falklacies whatsoever.

Asking a memeber to discuss another personal politics is grievous, bordering on atrocious. If I chair an organisation and tell my members that before you can correspond with someone from London you need to get the person's personal take on the gentirfication of Brixton I am intruding both on my member's personal rights and the rights of the people he or she corresponds with...or do you not see that?

"Jerusalem Post.": Only one other peridoical ONLY printing in English only, many,many printing in both English and Hebrew so that it does make the periodical very mainstream and one that is considered the de favcto mouth piece to the English speaking world. In any even that is neither here nor there, just my questioning as to why you attached a derogotory label to it.

"al Jazeera in English is more popular.": Not in Israel for sure. Sheer numbers will tell you that without lookinh. 1 billion Muslims worldwide versus 14 million Jews. Adding non-members of those two toarget demographics as possible consumers and you begin to see that it could really be no other way but then so what? Jazeera has often been accused of hack journalism, the Post never has despite your saying there had beena problem. Surely as a person who has been reading it since the very early 80s, daily, I would be aware of some inherent problems with the post, you mentioned "2 crooks" I believe. Yet to my knowledge the paper has always been and continue to be the paper to read at home and abroad (sounds like a nice commercial but never the less it is true).


And here comes the nonsense/ Am I what? Look, of all people posting here I am the ONLY one to offer everything down to my actual street adress and military information so if you find yourself with nothing to do, check my boanfides. I will not gifnify any more ridiculous garbage.

I will close this post though by saying, you asked for proof, proof above what has been published in a mainstrem news source accepted the world over, and in fact I provided alink to the actual 3 motions pased and the wording while sofntend in the final wording still represents the same vile and atrocious ideas " The Union asks its memebers to bring up the subject and dicsuss" about says it all to rational folks. Whether yopu have a vested interest in not dealing with the reality of the situation, or just like (what you imagine to be) antagonbistic nonsense, I could not be concerned less.

You asked in a civil fashion, ergo I provided exactly what you asked for. I suggest anyone else interested in verifying the Post story simply follow the proffered hyperlink and see for yourself what the Union (itself) hasd to say on the issue.