S T W C -- Shame On You!

[butchersapron]

InterStella claims that members of the Brazillian community were denied permission to speak - yet another report clearly states that there were speakers from the local Brazillian community.

Personally, Butchersapron, I find your constant attempts to engage in tedious squabbles on these boards tiresome.

The point is that solidarity was shown with Menzes, a political analysis was raised that linked the issues of civil liberties in the UK with the war on terror and despite some minor disagreements reported it sounds like an effective action.

I said 'read carfeully', which you evidentally did not do. If you had of done you would have noticed that she actually said:

"STWC had clearly forgotten what they were there for and didn't want to let Menezes's family and friends, or members of the Brazilian community, say their piece."

which is a substantially different thing from what you are claiming that she said isn't it? I suggest yhat you take back your claim that the two people who did attend the event are lying.

As it goes, udo, you are the one with the reputation of being the most block headed of all sectarians on here. A quick perusal of your threads alone would help to make this clear. This is when you're not accusing people of being racists thenh dissapearing when you're asked to defend the claim.

 

[Wilf]

The report above doesn't seen to be true - given that I have photographic evidence that workmates off Menzes spoke at the rally, I have just read an alternative report on Indymedia:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/07/319572.html

But then the very report you refer to goes on to say:

the organizers from the Stop the War Coalition could have done more to facilitate contributions from those in attendance as well as the speakers they had lined up.

Don't think I'd want you defending me if i was in court.

 

[montevideo]

here we go, the march after the stwc's 'demo' at stockwell

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/07/319591.html

 

[layabout]

Surely is entirely correct to link the attack on civil liberties in Britain with the war in Iraq, just as it was correct to link the bombings on Iraq with the bombings in London - isn't that the essence of socialism, connecting the dots

Sure. Now the what the fuck has that got to do with a memorial vigil?

 

[Herbert Read]

Surely is entirely correct to link the attack on civil liberties in Britain with the war in Iraq, just as it was correct to link the bombings on Iraq with the bombings in London - isn't that the essence of socialism, connecting the dots

Thats the essence of swp hackery...., connecting the dots you sound like tony cliff. Pathetic..............

 

[Trouble]

Thats the essence of swp hackery...., connecting the dots you sound like tony cliff. Pathetic..............

edited cause it did not add anything to discussion.

 

[tollbar]

Surely is entirely correct to link the attack on civil liberties in Britain with the war in Iraq, just as it was correct to link the bombings on Iraq with the bombings in London - isn't that the essence of socialism, connecting the dots

Dont you think that people are quite capable of doing that for themselves without buying a copy of Socialist Worker which only states the blindingly obvious.

And whats the Swaps solution ?. Join Respect, whose leader recently called for suicide bombers to be shot !. Fucking opportunist hypocrites.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

This strikes me as a load of shite from start to finish.

I was present at the event from about six to half-past six. Far from being some well-drilled event designed to promote one point of view at the expense of others, what struck me was that it wasn't actually well-organised at all. It was impossible fo more than about fifty people to hear the speakers, due to (a) the traffic and (b) the presence of a second speaker, who opened up with a second megaphone at about twenty-five past six. This put most people present in a position where they could either hear nothing, or hear two people at once.

Kropotkin's contribution of 1.27 is as incoherent as the event itself. What does he mean by "terrible politics"? A large variety of opinions were on display. If you attend an event where such is the case, you're going to disagree with a fair proportion of the people present. It is witless to blame that on the organisers of the protest.

There were, in fact, a large number of speakers, not that I could hear any of them. They kicked off with a cleric, moved on to somebody representing Tube workers and so on. The idea of it being some sort of an exclusive event is purely tripe.

This is the usual horseshit where people organise an event - and other people claim that they've "hijacked" it. It has no moee truth than it usually has. Neither the end of the event (i.e. the march) nor the report on Indymedia - no friend to the Trotskyites - suggest that people were excluded in any way.

 

[rebel warrior]

So some people thought it was outrageous that leading members of the Stop the War Coalition spoke at a vigil organised by the, er, Stop the War Coalition?

Just making sure I am reading this right.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's an amazing point which seems to elude some people - possibly because they never organise anything substantial themselves, but merely slag off those who do - that people who do organise events don't necessarily know everybody individually or every group who would like to make a contribution to that event. Remarkably enough, however, many speakers you invite, there are nearly always people present who wish to speak but whom the organisers do not know beforehand. This can even include people who have something important to saay, but whose telephone numbers are not, as it happens, known to the organisers beforehand. Fortunately, if they make themselves known, they can usually find a place on the platform, as appears to have happened here, even in an event as scrappily organised as this one.

 

[montevideo]

It's an amazing point which seems to elude some people - possibly because they never organise anything substantial themselves, but merely slag off those who do - that people who do organise events don't necessarily know everybody individually or every group who would like to make a contribution to that event. Remarkably enough, however, many speakers you invite, there are nearly always people present who wish to speak but whom the organisers do not know beforehand. This can even include people who have something important to saay, but whose telephone numbers are not, as it happens, known to the organisers beforehand. Fortunately, if they make themselves known, they can usually find a place on the platform, as appears to have happened here, even in an event as scrappily organised as this one.

i refer your goodself to post #25

 

[TeeJay]

Surely is entirely correct to link the attack on civil liberties in Britain with the war in Iraq, just as it was correct to link the bombings on Iraq with the bombings in London - isn't that the essence of socialism, connecting the dots

Is this the same vigil on Monday that Epicurus is writing about on this thread:
Brazilian view from yesterday’s vigil for Jean Charles de Menezes?

Yesterday we went to the vigil for Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Station and after some political speeches from the usual groups that attach themselves to this sort of thing, the Brazilians amongst the group decided to march from Stockwell to the nearest Police Station (as no-one knew where that was we went from Stockwell to Vauxhall along South Lambeth Road much to the surprise of the Police who didn’t really want to let the march go ahead).

I spoke with many fellow Brazilians at Stockwell and on the March and the consensus view (not my view) seemed to be this:

“Responsibility for the death of Jean Charles de Menezes lies with the terrorists whose actions led to the police being armed and shooting Jean Charles in the first place, some responsibility must also lay with the Police who need to explain how and where the breakdown in there Intelligence occurred”.

While I don’t fully agree with this view I feel it is a valid view for his friends and family to hold.

 

[TeeJay]

(Re-posted from another thread but equally relevant to this one)

Personally I would support anything organised specifically to demand justice for Jean Charles de Menezes and done in consultation with his friends, family and the wider Brazilian/Latin American community in London. I have no interest however in being tricked into turning up at a protest put on by anyone with other agendas such as a generalised hatred of the police or government, a desire to promote their political party or group, looking for an excuse to fight with the police, promoting 'troops out now', supporting Iraqi insurgents, banging a religious drum or fantasing about CIA/MI6/Mossad conspiracy theories.

I would really suggest that the aformentioned 'friends, family and the wider Brazilian/Latin American community' make sure they are not seduced by the bullshit of seemingly 'supportive' groups who have shown time and again they will cynically use anyone or any tragedy to advance their own interests only to walk away later when they have got what they wanted.

 

[layabout]

It's an amazing point which seems to elude some people - possibly because they never organise anything substantial themselves, but merely slag off those who do - that people who do organise events don't necessarily know everybody individually or every group who would like to make a contribution to that event. Remarkably enough, however, many speakers you invite, there are nearly always people present who wish to speak but whom the organisers do not know beforehand. This can even include people who have something important to saay, but whose telephone numbers are not, as it happens, known to the organisers beforehand. Fortunately, if they make themselves known, they can usually find a place on the platform, as appears to have happened here, even in an event as scrappily organised as this one.

Would Iain Blair, John Paddick, The shadow home secretary and the local catholic priest been allowed on that platform?

Do the organisers let people know that they can speak?

Also, why is it called a vigil, if there is going to me people armed with megaphones talking to the crowd?

 

[montevideo]

Would Iain Blair, John Paddick, The shadow home secretary and the local catholic priest been allowed on that platform?

Do the organisers let people know that they can speak?

Also, why is it called a vigil, if there is going to me people armed with megaphones talking to the crowd?

are there concrete rules for a vigil? Isn't simply an act of observance? I didn't realise there were a set of rules that had to be followed, maybe you should inform the International Vigil Committee to let them know an illegal vigil was held behind their backs? Maybe next time we can get the commissioner for Vigil Rights to attend to ensure vigil rules are strictly adhered to.

Prick!

 

[rednblack]

inform the International Vigil Committee

Prick!

vigilantes?

 

[Top Dog]

vigilantes?

vigil-anti's?

 

[denialworks4me]

im tired of the squabling on the political threads too - seems to be the same jaded people throwing mud on campaigns and actions...put your energy into something positive seems like Global Women's Strike group have more to answer to, tho for many on these boards its easier to regurgitate anti stwc or socialist rants than analyse and comment in a progressive manner.

 

[IntoStella]

It's an amazing point which seems to elude some people - possibly because they never organise anything substantial themselves, but merely slag off those who do - that people who do organise events don't necessarily know everybody individually or every group who would like to make a contribution to that event. Remarkably enough, however, many speakers you invite, there are nearly always people present who wish to speak but whom the organisers do not know beforehand. This can even include people who have something important to saay, but whose telephone numbers are not, as it happens, known to the organisers beforehand. Fortunately, if they make themselves known, they can usually find a place on the platform, as appears to have happened here, even in an event as scrappily organised as this one.

Why did you leave the event so quickly if it wasn't a disgraceful shambles?

Have you forgotten, as SWTC clearly have, that it was meant to be a *vigil* for Jean de Menezes, a man tragically and appallingly slaughtered not three days beforehand? Do you honestly think his family wouldn't have been appalled by the the sight of hysterical trots, screaming, literally screaming, into a microphone, let alone the fact that they, the family, had already been completely forgotten?

People have shown far more sensitivity and sympathy towards you over a cat that you were fond of than STWC showed to Jean de Menezes's family and friends. Perhaps you need to reconsider your priorities.

 

[denialworks4me]

Why did you leave the event so quickly if it wasn't a disgraceful shambles?

Have you forgotten, as SWTC clearly have, that it was meant to be a *vigil* for Jean de Menezes, a man tragically and appallingly slaughtered not three days beforehand? Do you honestly think his family wouldn't have been appalled by the the sight of hysterical trots, screaming, literally screaming, into a microphone, let alone the fact that they, the family, had already been completely forgotten?

People have shown far more sensitivity and sympathy towards you over a cat that you were fond of than STWC showed to Jean de Menezes's family and friends. Perhaps you need to reconsider your priorities.

who can take this serious..its a bizzare caricature of what went on...

 

[IntoStella]

who can take this serious..its a bizzare caricature of what went on...

You were there? No, you weren't, were you, or you would have said. Are you going to pretend you were now?

Funny how trots are so ready to deny something they actually know nothing about. Who can take the trots "serious"?

As I said, I have hitherto kept out of the usual P&P battles but what happened on Monday night was sickening, and it doesn't matter how many people who weren't actually there try to deny it, the fact remains.

 

[IntoStella]

seems to be the same jaded people throwing mud on campaigns and actions

Actually it isn't, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good whine.

 

[TeeJay]

are there concrete rules for a vigil? Isn't simply an act of observance? I didn't realise there were a set of rules that had to be followed, maybe you should inform the International Vigil Committee to let them know an illegal vigil was held behind their backs? Maybe next time we can get the commissioner for Vigil Rights to attend to ensure vigil rules are strictly adhered to.

Prick!

Claiming to be one thing while in fact being another isn't necessarily illegal but it is dishonest (or maybe just fuckwitted):

vigil
n.

1. a) A watch kept during normal sleeping hours.
b) The act or a period of observing; surveillance.
2. The eve of a religious festival observed by staying awake as a devotional exercise.
3. Ritual devotions observed on the eve of a holy day. Often used in the plural.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vigil

protest
n.

1. A formal declaration of disapproval or objection issued by a concerned person, group, or organization.
2. An individual or collective gesture or display of disapproval.

www.dictionary.com

 

[X-77]

here we go, the march after the stwc's 'demo' at stockwell

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2005/07/319591.html

but wasn't that the march that came out of the stwc's demo?

 

[X-77]

are there concrete rules for a vigil? Isn't simply an act of observance? I didn't realise there were a set of rules that had to be followed, maybe you should inform the International Vigil Committee to let them know an illegal vigil was held behind their backs? Maybe next time we can get the commissioner for Vigil Rights to attend to ensure vigil rules are strictly adhered to.

Prick!

someone needed to say that to him baaadly

 

[TeeJay]

im tired of the squabling on the political threads too - seems to be the same jaded people throwing mud on campaigns and actions...put your energy into something positive seems like Global Women's Strike group have more to answer to, tho for many on these boards its easier to regurgitate anti stwc or socialist rants than analyse and comment in a progressive manner.

These forums are for discussing stuff. That is what happens here. Sometimes people praise things and sometimes they criticise things - isn't that the nature of debate?

What people do away from their computers isn't constrained by their posting comments here is it?

I would also like to see people actually doing stuff, but isn't that kind of irrelevant to what is going on in these forums since these forums exist as somewhere to debate things? These forums are *also* used to help organise and advertise events as well, but it isn't and either/or situation is it?

 

[TeeJay]

who can take this serious..its a bizzare caricature of what went on...

Sorry but I take IntoStella seriously due to her previous track record of fair and accurate reporting, her extensive knowledge of Lambeth and her lack of a preexisting agenda. I haven't always agreed with everything she has posted on every issue but I do take her seriously.

 

[TeeJay]

but wasn't that the march that came out of the stwc's demo?

It is prescisely this kind of parasitic behaviour that people dislike.

Do you see any of those people carrying stwc signs? How many of these people are there because they are interested in stwc? Would they have turned up for a local action for de Menezes if the stwc hadn't been there? What do people think about the stwc trying to jump on this bandwagon, trying to control events, trying to take credit, trying to pretend that any support for de Menezes is support for them?

swp/ruc/stwc/'insert front here' = full time issue hijackers

 

[layabout]

are there concrete rules for a vigil? Isn't simply an act of observance? I didn't realise there were a set of rules that had to be followed, maybe you should inform the International Vigil Committee to let them know an illegal vigil was held behind their backs? Maybe next time we can get the commissioner for Vigil Rights to attend to ensure vigil rules are strictly adhered to.

Prick!

I asked you straight forward simple questions. You evaded them and called me a prick.

Again.

Please answer the questions:

Would Iain Blair, John Paddick, The shadow home secretary and the local catholic priest been allowed on that platform?

Do the organisers let people know that they can speak?

Also, why is it called a vigil, if there is going to me people armed with megaphones talking to the crowd?

 

[treelover]

blimey, fair few on that march, i've said before, other countries, particularly brazilian/ latinos, don't take the crap we do.

then again, apparently the global womens strike people behaved appallingly

Intostella, please stick around, we need you in p/p.