Russian thugs beat up gays

[ramjamclub]

ranjamclub, "Het Parool" is closed for non-subscribers.
"Trouw" speaks of the Rembrandpark's pond (I have no idea how deep that water is) but says he was robbed of his shirt, pushed in the water and forced to stay in it for two hours (nothing about "forced to swim" for two hours or "stoning".) Vraagje: Wat is een "darkroom"? Nooit van gehoord. Moet weer iets Hollands zijn

It is a very weird incident but how do they know if them being Moroccan (and presumably Muslim, if they are) has something to do with it?

salaam.

Depends on the newspaper you read. The report varies in the details.
One newspaper reported that they spoke Arabic to each other and plus the description of the boys appearence would give credance to the possibilty of them being of Maroccan origin.
Darkroom is as the name suggests, a darkened room in which Gays meet to have anonymous sex.

 

[revol68]

Never let fact-gathering stand in your way. Nothing as good as taking assumptions for truth to come to a trustworthy conclusion.

salaam.

well I don't see any reason why the person would lie and it's hardly unimaginable.

 

[Aldebaran]

Depends on the newspaper you read. The report varies in the details.

I have no good idea of the media in The Netherlands, but if the information is changing depending the source that doesn't add to clarity or trustworthyness. What was said in the police report?

One newspaper reported that they spoke Arabic to each other

mmm... Who overheard that? Did he know Arabic from Berber or Hebrew or Farsi? I suppose not. (If they were Moroccan 90% + chances they are of Riffian Berber origin and don't speak Arabic)

and plus the description of the boys appearence would give credance to the possibilty of them being of Maroccan origin.

An other assumption (probably made because the largest immigrant group is made up by Moroccans?)

Darkroom is as the name suggests, a darkened room in which Gays meet to have anonymous sex.

Thank you. I'm now - I think- an exception among M-E's Islamic scholars, informed on the intimacies of the gay's meeting places in The Netherlands
So they have those 3 going around there with broom and bucket to clean and pick up condoms. I don't think that is helpful to provoke a change of mind in the desired direction.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

well I don't see any reason why the person would lie and it's hardly unimaginable.

Some year ago in Brussels Central Station a foreign teenager stabbed a Belgian teenager to death for robbing him of his MP3.
Witnesses described the two attackers as "North African" because "they looked like" and - of course - according to the "they are all thieves and criminals, isn't it" mindset.
Hence so did the media describe "North Africans" to be the robbers and so did the police start the investigation into that direction.
I was in Belgium at that time. I looked at the station's security cameras recordings and I saw immediately they were most likely not "North African" or "Arab".
They were not. They were both Polish.

salaam.

 

[TAE]

At the very least, this will have provoked a debate over the position of gay people in society. Were it not for the march, that wouldn't have happened. Doubtless also there'll be a fair number of people who were shocked at watching people being beaten up and will have more sympathy with gay folk and their problems in future.

That's what happened in the UK: the persecution and prosecutions of gay men in the 1950s and 1960s served more to create sympathy for gay people than generate repulsion. Ironically, it porbably strengthened the hand of those campaigning for decriminalisation.

I think that's still the biggest argument in favour of peaceful protest even in the face of violence.

 

[TAE]

Tatchell knows the game better than most and while I'm, of course, generally sympathetic, he would have been furious to have gone all that way and not be thumped in front of a camera.

Perhaps.

I don't like Tatchell's style, but he certainly has guts.

Those russian neo-nazis they showed on the news look like a very nasty bunch of chaps.

 

[Suffolk Punch]

Perspective

1. Moscow has the largest gay community in the former USSR, but only 30 people many of whom where not Russian turned up for the demonstration. Where were the rest? Too frightened to attend because they know when Tatchell, the MEP's and media circus go back home they will be the ones getting Queer bashed as a result of this publicity stunt?

2. The violence was sickening, but the democratic post-Soviet Russian state has killed over 100 000 Chechens in two wars 1994-6 & 1999-. These saw murder, torture and rape of the civilian population both Russian and Chechen. If you want to know about repression in Russia talk to a resident of Grozny. So isn't it distateful to suggest that being punched by a nazi is the same level of repression as having your city laid waste by carpet bombing and heavy artillery?

 

[ramjamclub]

don't be in denial

Aldebaran you dissected my post as if I wrote the damn newspaper reports.
Hello! All papers differ in their reporting. It's called a politacal slant. Left wing v right wing reporting. Most Dutch people know what a Maroccan looks and sounds like , so if they say it walks, talks like a duck it must be a duck. The largest immigration group is made up of Surinamers then Turks.
You sound like you are in denial . Young Maroccans have a bad press here in Holland and its not for nothing. Look at the fooball game Marocco played here and the Maroccans won but their supporters beat the shit out of the stewards.
If you don't believe me I'll send you a link.

 

[chainsaw cat]

link
link2
this what I found

that appears to be in Martian.

 

[souljacker]

If you want to know about repression in Russia talk to a resident of Grozny.

Or indeed, a chechen living in Moscow.

It seems to me that the far-right in Russia is not only gaining strength, but seems to have the backing of the Police and the Mayor.

If you were a gay Muscovite, the last thing you'd want to do is shout about it. They were probably quite pleased that Tatchell and Fairbrass had the bottle to stand up for them.

 

[Aldebaran]

that appears to be in Martian.

mmmm...Ever thought about it that your language appears to be Martian to those who don't know it?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldebaran you dissected my post as if I wrote the damn newspaper reports.

No, I said that if reports vary (and none of them report details you posted about the incident) that doesn't add to trust in media information about what really happened.

It's called a politacal slant. Left wing v right wing reporting.

In my experience this type of "reporting" would be better classified under Tabloid Slant.

Most Dutch people know what a Maroccan looks and sounds like , so if they say it walks, talks like a duck it must be a duck.

They can make distinction between Berber-Hebrew- Farsi-Kurdish-Arabic and *if* they can be postive about it that what they hear is Arabic (most Westerners can't even make the distinction between Turkish and Arabic) they can hear it is the Moroccan dialect, not the Egyptian, the Algerian, the Tunesian.... whatever?
As for appearance: The man in the street in The Netherlands adds to his linguistic knowledge the ability to flawlessly make distinction "at sight" between Berbers, Arabs, Kurds, Turks etc.. etc... ?
You are at a wonderful lonely height of Average Western Insight, overthere in The Netherlands.

The largest immigration group is made up of Surinamers then Turks.

I think you must have a lot more Berbers and Kurds then you are aware of and if I look at the Belgian situation - probably comparable - Berber Moroccans are a larger group then the Turkish (Kurds and Turkoman together).

You sound like you are in denial.

Like and other poster, you confuse fact-gathering with what you like to confuse it with.

Young Maroccans have a bad press here in Holland and its not for nothing.

Some Moroccans get a "bad press" in some Western countries.
Some have a bad reputation in the MENA.
If I believe my trustworthy Moroccan friends, some have such a reputation in Morocco itself.
How is that related to the issue discussed?

Look at the fooball game Marocco played here and the Maroccans won but their supporters beat the shit out of the stewards.

I don't follow Moroccan or Dutch football competition but no Dutch (or any other EU Made) supporter is ever violent? Occasionally I see or hear otherwise but I must be wrong.

salaam.

 

[ramjamclub]

Still in denial then?

Pointing out that other supporters are also violent doesn't detract from the fact that the Moroccans were wrong in their actions.
An English expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

You probably couldn't tell a welshman or scotsman from an englishman if you heard them talking. You would lump them together as English!

The largest immigration group is made up of Surinamers then Turks.

Still applys

Young Maroccans have a bad press here in Holland and its not for nothing.

Still applys

Like and other poster, you confuse fact-gathering with what you like to confuse it with.

Now I'm confused, something got lost in your English.

If my fellow countrymen do something stupid then I concede to the facts, I feel ashamed of their actions but don't deny it on principal.

 

[Aldebaran]

Pointing out that other supporters are also violent doesn't detract from the fact that the Moroccans were wrong in their actions.

No, but it has no relation with what you described that happened in Rembrand park.

You probably couldn't tell a welshman or scotsman from an englishman if you heard them talking.

Yes I can.

If my fellow countrymen do something stupid then I concede to the facts, I feel ashamed of their actions but don't deny it on principal.

Why would I care what any Moroccan does, other then caring aobut what it does to him interms of Islam and being Muslim? I have no affinity with Moroccans that goes any further then Islam and even there... Moroccan Islamic practice is different than mine, in terms of law school and in terms of cultural influences.
Even if someone of my country does something wrong why would I care about it as if it was my responsibility, let alone be "ashamed"? If possible I would explain what Islam has to tell about it. That is as far as my responsiblity goes.

salaam.

 

[likesfish]

that bloke from right said fred is brave if foolhardy.
the US has slaughtered thousands of civilians but even falujah got off lightly compared with grozny