Rugby League Vs Rugby Union

[tarannau]

Even union doesn't have huge coverage across the SE ime, particularly in the state sector where teachers are often unwilling to take the effort and risk of training rugby. One committed teacher can make all the difference. Union and league were about equally invisible for most of my local peers.

Where union does benefit is a hugely active club/mini rugby scene and better links with schools. I may have played two whole games at school, but I can navigate the home counties by the hundreds of little clubs I played at as a nipper. Part of that charm is that it's a suitable sport for odd shaped kids, something which league isn't. Union also seems to have a diversity of player that league's never managed to match - for all its posh associations union was one of the most successfully racially integrated sports I played in as a nipper. You've got all those committed Celts, alongside australian, kiwis and the biggest mates they could recruit at school. My few experiences of league, both at school and university, were far less mixed.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Part of that charm is that it's a suitable sport for odd shaped kids, something which league isn't.

I wouldn't push that point. In my experience it meant "it's an enormous advantage to be fat".

 

[tarannau]

No, but it means the fat kids or beanpoles aren't automatically last. You always had more affection for the outcasts in union.

To be fair though it probably doesn't make as much difference now. I come from an era where everyone from 6 upwards played full contact rugby, with full on scrums. I believe they only play touch and uncontested rugby until much later now.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I played union at school: we had scrums, though I think in the first year we played mini-rugby across the pitch and only had a front row on each side (maybe). I played scrum-half, thereby avoiding most of the risks.

I do think that a very large proportion of actual union attendees, at club matches, are people who played union a lot at school (and I don't know if it remains the case, but I knew a fair few people at university whose schools didn't play football at all). They'd have to be, I think, because unless you have, you have absolutely no idea what's going on when the pack have got hold of it. Football is a great deal easier to follow, that's part of its genius.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I was a shrimp at school, where union was the main sport of the sporting calendar. At 17 I shot upwards and at 22 I shot outwards.

If only I'd gained that 'figure' a bit younger, I might have been good at union instead of getting flattened...

 

[tarannau]

I think you both may have gone to schools considerably posher than mine to be fair. Even in this area of London well served by local clubs there wasn't much rugby in the state sector. Football was the 300 pound gorilla in the room, with basketball rising quickly

However my club was full of refugee Welsh and Kiwi children and a lot of firemen for some reason. I wouldn't underestimate the role of family in educating the youth in union - my dad was swift to take me down to mini rugby as soon as the smallest jersey would fit.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Yeah, I did go to a pretty posh secondary school.

They even referred to football as 'soccer', which is the only time I've ever heard anyone english doing so...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

A Stevenage comprehensive, thanks for asking.

 

[tarannau]

Y'see, I got my 11-plus to a Surrey grammar, went out of borough and still didn't get to play rugby. I clearly needed to get a scholarship to Whitgift or something. It was all football really.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I wouldn't believe that for a second Paulie. Hate to bust your bubble, but as a Londoner with plenty of school age relatives I can assure you that league's not making miraculous growth in schools, in fact I've never heard of it being played in anything other than a one off PE lesson or two. There may be a RL initiative, like there was in my day, where some official from the league visits and gives a few hours of training, perhaps boosting it above Bolivian Dolphin Hockey and Korfball as participative sports in schools, but it's hardly a lasting effect. To give you an example there used to be a Brixton RL mini team (Bulls) encouraged by a local state school headmaster and heavily backed/used in promo literature by the RL. It did alright for about 3 years, before seemingly dying in 2007 through lack of interest

They've been trying to make the Broncos/Harlequins/Big Arse Thumbing Jessies of London working for decades now, to dubious amounts of success - why the hell would the average schoolkid be tempted into a world of league when there's one big RL club nearby with a history of failure and plenty of union clubs, with the union clubs offfering a route to a more attractive, status-filled international game. Why would the average Londoner want to get into league instead, particularly when union's a more inclusive gam for all body shapes at school.

London and the South is now the third biggest region nationwide in terms of entries into the competition with over 50 schools participating and almost 150 teams taking part in the boys competition alone. In 2008-09, over 80 schools teams entered the Champions Schools regional competitions staged by the Harlequins RL community team, which is well over double the number of entries since the coaching programme began in 2005-06

Harlequins RL Schools Leagues - In response to the growing popularity of Rugby League, the community team now runs two schools Leagues to cater for the demand for regular schools fixtures across South-West London. The Leagues are in their third year and now involve 15 school teams playing regular fortnightly fixtures at Year 7/8 and Year 9/10.

Girls Rugby League - The demand for girls Rugby League is growing and we are finding more and more schools requesting contact rugby League coaching for their girls. The start of 2008 has seen a big rise in demand and we hope to have around 10-15 schools playing contact Rugby League by Easter 2008. Further to this increase in demand, London’s first girls Rugby League team the West London Jets was launched in June 2008. This is a massive achievement in the South and we are extremely proud to be providing an exit route for our girl’s programmes.

Quins primary school coaching programme is comprised of a more structured schools delivery but is centered around the provision of free curriculum coaching offered to all the primary schools in Hounslow, Richmond, Kingston and parts of Ealing and North Surrey.

Apols for the C&P but for all that what you say may have applied years ago, things are changing for the good at the moment in many ways. Like I said before, we've now got local lads getting into the first team squad which is a first as far as I know for London and can only be for the good.

 

[rapattaque]

You must feel thoroughly vindicated that the poll bears out your viewpoint, Paulie - it seems that twice as many people find more excitement and entertainment in League than they do in.......




oh!




...ermmm.....carry on, like

Sorry treacle, the poll is very nice and it allows everyone to register their view, but it is an Urban 75 poll. Urban 75 users are predominantly from the South of the country as far as i can tell. At least as I write this, currently in the places forum for London and SE there have been 70000+ posts, Bristol and SW 24000+ posts and Wales 41000+ posts, whilst the Midlands and the North boards have totted up just over 13000 between them.

Surely the poll is simply reflecting where people are from rather than anything more telling about the difference in quality between the codes!

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Why do different sports have to be in competition with each other anyway?

Surely what counts is the enjoyment of both watching and playing them. I mean fewer people watch either code of rugby than football by quite some distance, yet that doesn't stop people enjoying their chosen type of egg-chasing.

 

[bendeus]

Sorry treacle, the poll is very nice and it allows everyone to register their view, but it is an Urban 75 poll. Urban 75 users are predominantly from the South of the country as far as i can tell. At least as I write this, currently in the places forum for London and SE there have been 70000+ posts, Bristol and SW 24000+ posts and Wales 41000+ posts, whilst the Midlands and the North boards have totted up just over 13000 between them.

Surely the poll is simply reflecting where people are from rather than anything more telling about the difference in quality between the codes!

Pardon me, my little dumpling, but a little googling managed to find me this,

Fifty-percent of viewers who watch rugby league on Sky Sports live in the South of England.

From here

So it would seem that southerners represent 50% of your viewing constituency, and that therefore Urban could be viewed as being perfectly representative.

People just don't like arse thumbing/grass shagging as much. That's all.

 

[bendeus]

Why do different sports have to be in competition with each other anyway?

History, class, regionalism, nationalism, player drain, professionalism vs. amateurism, two bald men fighting over a comb?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

History, class, regionalism, nationalism, player drain, professionalism vs. amateurism, two bald men fighting over a comb?

OK, fair point.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Why do different sports have to be in competition with each other anyway?

Surely what counts is the enjoyment of both watching and playing them. I mean fewer people watch either code of rugby than football by quite some distance, yet that doesn't stop people enjoying their chosen type of egg-chasing.

In the end, especially at the professional level, the two codes cant help but be in competition for sponsorship, monies, coverage etc especially because football is so big and leaves a smaller space for other sports to flourish.
Im personally happy to see that the expansion of the rugby league summer conference from 10 clubs to 90 has been possible because plenty of people at the grassroots are rugby fans and are happy to see their pitches used all year round, for their players to play in the summer, join committees etc etc. We've also nicked the union concept of the merit leagues which is proving very fruitful in development.

Personally i would like to see the codes work together more often, especially to get the handling codes into schools and colleges, and in a more structured way but that would require old league suspicions to die and for union to stop being so arrogant and full of itself.

I would also love to see the union clubs invited to enter the challenge cup and league clubs invited into the edf cup! Would be impossible for many reasons i suppose but i would pay good money to see leeds vs leicester or bath versus st helens in competitive games.

 

[bendeus]

Personally i would like to see the codes work together more often, especially to get the handling codes into schools and colleges, and in a more structured way but that would require old league suspicions to die and for union to stop being so arrogant and full of itself.

And with that kind of reconciliation talk how can we help but join the love-in?

 

[bendeus]

I would also love to see the union clubs invited to enter the challenge cup and league clubs invited into the edf cup! Would be impossible for many reasons i suppose but i would pay good money to see leeds vs leicester or bath versus st helens in competitive games.

They did this for a while in the early 90s, no? I'm sure I can remember two-leg exhibition matches between union and league sides - one 15 man and one 13.

Am I imagining things in my senility?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Nope. There were cross-code matches between Saints and Sale, and Wigan and Bath iirc.

eta: Wigan thrashed Bath 82-6 at league but were beaten 44-19 in the return match under union rules. can't find Saints/Sale result.

 

[bendeus]

Nope. There were cross-code matches between Saints and Sale, and Wigan and Bath iirc.

eta: Wigan thrashed Bath 82-6 at league but were beaten 44-19 in the return match under union rules. can't find Saints/Sale result.

Aye. Back in the day when league players were about a million times fitter, more physical and more aggressive than their union counterparts. Wonder how it would pan out now?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Would be interesting experiment i reckon. Do you have the rolling subs thing in union i.e. 4 subs and up to 12 substitutions per match? That's become one of the key tactical battles between league coaches these days, how you rotate players, in particular the impact forwards.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Aha! Found it. Sale struck a blow for rugby union with a surprise victory over Super League champions St Helens in the cross-code challenge at Knowsley Road.

Match report

 

[jannerboyuk]

Aha! Found it. Sale struck a blow for rugby union with a surprise victory over Super League champions St Helens in the cross-code challenge at Knowsley Road.

Match report

i love that report, sale score 41 points and therefore overran the saints but in conceding 39 points in the 2nd half they adopted surprisingly well? eh? even more delightful the first half gets several paragraphs, everything described in loving details. 2nd half - who scored, err thats it! Oh and the saints hadnt played for 2 months but the result was a shock? Maybe the most wonderfully biased review i have ever read. Brilliant!

Still would be very interesting to see how things would shape up in a competitive fixture with serious money at stake, decent crowds etc. and the much better conditioned union players even in comparison to 2003. Maybe a champions versus champions series to test the waters.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Very impressed by sale doubling their aggregate attendances from 50k to 100k in the last 6/7 years. Impressive. Hopefully celtic crusaders can achieve the same in a union area.

 

[tarannau]

Well given that essentially 3rd grade All Blacks rejects won the RWC this year and that union clubs haven't been rushing to take up league players of late it does tend to suggest that the talent pool's wider on the union side. Which is understandable given its wider spread globally, even nationally

I don't quite understand the attraction myself. It's like trying to compare apples and oranges in strange sporting showdown. It's a little bit of a gimmick - in the absence of a decent intl game it just looks a little tacky and unnecessary, especially on the union side.

 

[tarannau]

Very impressed by sale doubling their aggregate attendances from 50k to 100k in the last 6/7 years. Impressive. Hopefully celtic crusaders can achieve the same in a union area.

Like the London Broncos? Or the big girls' blouse Harlequins RL team or whatever they call them now.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Like the London Broncos? Or the big girls' blouse Harlequins RL team or whatever they call them now.

whats that got to do with us? you can of course compare london to south wales if you like but i think sale is more of a comparable situation.

 

[tarannau]

How convenient for you. Why would Sale be any closer to South Wales than London out of interest?

To be honest I think Welsh rugby union's going to be too worried. It's indicative of the lack of threat that union sees in the league game that the once accursed sport can now open a franchise in the Welsh heartlands causing little more than a wry smile and a pat on the head. There was a time when that would have caused fury. Now football's the main 'enemy'

 

[jannerboyuk]

How convenient for you. Why would Sale be any closer to South Wales than London out of interest?

To be honest I think Welsh rugby union's going to be too worried. It's indicative of the lack of threat that union sees in the league game that the once accursed sport can now open a franchise in the Welsh heartlands causing little more than a wry smile and a pat on the head. There was a time when that would have caused fury. Now football's the main 'enemy'

accursed sport? what are you a child. Fury? its a sport mate, you need to get a grip. Who mentioned union being worried exactly?

I would suggest that almost anywhere in the country is closer to south wales then london, bless its big smelly socks, let alone a small town in the north west surrounded by football and rugby league clubs, flying the flag for professional rugby union. Yeah you are right no paralells at all. You should really try not letting your hatred blind you too much.

But hey if its convenient for you to believe that we are going to go along the same lines as harlequins then fine and dandy. I dont really give a toss. Kinda means we will still be playing pro rugby league in 20 years time and if thats in front of crowds of 3000 then i really dont care, i'll make my own mind up on what to watch no matter how many other agree or disagree.

I am curious as to why sale sharks split off from sale RFC (according to wiki) in 2003, especially as sale rfcs history goes back to 1861. Wiki seems to suggest that sale are trying to be the club for the whole north west, something the crusaders are trying to do for south wales in an more explicit way. Nice to know where shane howarth disappeared to after grannygate, even more so when you see the welsh flag still against his name.

 

[bendeus]

I am curious as to why sale sharks split off from sale RFC (according to wiki) in 2003, especially as sale rfcs history goes back to 1861. Wiki seems to suggest that sale are trying to be the club for the whole north west, something the crusaders are trying to do for south wales in an more explicit way. Nice to know where shane howarth disappeared to after grannygate, even more so when you see the welsh flag still against his name.

Kinda like the Pope trying to be a pontiff for all of Iran