Rudolf Steiner/Waldorf schools

[Ms Ordinary]

A friends daughter was removed from steiner school this year after being in pre school etc. She was almost 8 and yet couldnt read and wanted to read. Becuase of this empasis on not pushing them to read it mean she was being denied the ability to explore her world ( which they strongly advocate) becuase she couldnt read road signs etc.
She got so disruptive at school they moved her and hey presto, one very happy child, charging ahead as fast as possible devouring books and catching up with the other kids who have been reading for 3 years already.

I suppose you could use that to show that the Steiner method working though? In that she didn't suffer from not being made to learn when she was five. Though obviously the fact that they wouldn't teach her when she wanted to learn is something I wouldn't agree with.

I don't have any personal experience of Steiner, but quite a lot of it appeals to me. Ultimately I don't think I could have gone through with it though (as a parent) because I feel incredibly ill-at-ease around a certain type of very brisk & confident middle class hippy - I know its a prejudice but I really can't help it - & I suspected (quite possibly wrongly) that there would have been plenty of those around.

Reading "The Wild" by Esther Freud was quite interesting as well - it doesn't make it out to be all bad by any means, but it does describe a child who isn't really happy in that situation.

 

[Cloo]

I get the impression that they're OK for some people, fantastic for a few and for another few they completely fuck up their lives, leaving them with no direction or discipline and lacking skills they need to get by in life.

I think a child has to be unusually self-motivated to be able to get something out of such an environment.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I think alot depends how how motivational the teachers are. Theres a misconception that all steiner schools allow kids to learn what they want and when they want to.
Theres a 'free' school somewhere in the eat of england which does just that and kids do what they want, when they want from a selection of lessons available.
I was really suprised that most steiner schools arent like that and do follow a curriculum its just differently focused from mainstream school

 

[kyser_soze]

Hmmm reading this thread I am struck by the amazing conclusion that it's not method or how kids are taught, it's the teacher than teaches...and I see Mshissyfit has made that point.

As for the whole reading/writing thing, I'm extremely glad I learned to read using phonics before I went to infant school (which my Ma kept up during term time as well) so I don't buy the whole 'not teaching reading and writing before 7' business.

 

[Looby]

I have read this thread with interest as my friend is sending her daughter to a Steiner School, mainly because the schools in our area are appalling especially the senior schools.

My concerns are that she will not get the knowledge/skills required to be able to go back into mainstream education if she wants/needs to, because whether we like it or not to do A-Levels, Uni etc she needs decent grades.

At the moment this school does not have the facilities to teach pupils beyond 14 so to do GCSE's she would have to transfer to a state school or be home educated.
I am terrified that if she had to enter one of the schools in our area at 14 after 10 years of fluffiness that she will get crucified.
Would they prepare students for this? (I know her parents can do this too.)

 

[soluble duck]

I went to a Steiner school until Year 6, and my experiences were mixed too.

I think there isnt enough diversity of people there, most are new-age, middle-class hippy types. This lead, certainly at the school i went to, to the pupils feeling very different to normal state school pupils, and not really recognizing them in town etc. Also, the word i would describe 'Steiner-ites' (as i used to call us), is airy-fairy- so many of them dont seem to have a grip on the real world. Also, the fact that there is money involved means that there is corruption. This has certainly started to take place at the Steiner school i went to.

Also, the money issue meant that myself and my brothers were forced to leave the School because, following my parents divorce, which was quite 'messy', we couldn't afford the £1000 a term fee. There is definately a community there, but it is easily swayed against you, as in my families case, you do not appear to be a 'good' Steiner follower. This was noticeable in my lessons where one teacher made comments about me 'not staying for that much longer'.

As far as education goes , I found it not to be very challenging, and there is definately too big an emphasis on creativity as some simply arent creative.

However, I would agree that at an early age, up until about 5, it is a nice environment to learn.

Why hasnt anyonme mentioned Eurythmy by the way.... what a load of completely pointless pretentious crap.....and it resulted in the Eurythmics as well

 

[soluble duck]

"I am terrified that if she had to enter one of the schools in our area at 14 after 10 years of fluffiness that she will get crucified.
Would they prepare students for this? (I know her parents can do this too"

well.... as long as she is exposed to life outside the Steiner community she will be fine. There appears a tendency for Steiner believers to look down on everything non-Steiner, which results in them becoming ever more detatched.

when i moved into a state school i was not ready at all, although i was only 12. I found it hard to make friends, and of course Steiner pupils are a year behind in terms of teaching (i was in year 6 Steiner, and year 7 state) and i had no knowledge of science or maths.

 

[Looby]

I'm sure she will have contact outside Steiner but her parents are moving to be closer to the school so her mother probably won't know any other parents/kids other than from Steiner.

I really want to talk to my friend about this as I deeply care about her and her daughter, but don't want it to seem as if I am interfering or criticizing her choices as she really believes this is the best thing for her child.

Aaaaaaaaaaaah this is horrible

 

[soluble duck]

for a lot of children it is the best thing, but it also depends alot on the school you go to, just like any state school.

 

[Masseuse]

I know near to nothing about Steiner schools, but I am quite interested in why everyone seems to be scoffing at stories of elves and woodland folk and mystical beings.

What's so wishy washy about children engaging with stories of this ilk? I read loads of them by Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm - it's folklore using archetypal characters and stories. So what? Can't children read or be told utterly fantastical whimsical nutty stuff anymore? Or is it straight onto the microsoft instruction manuals?

 

[Masseuse]

If I have kids they are bloody well going to grow up believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

I'm going to plant little things there the fairies have left behind. Like tiny hats and pixie dust. And tiny tiny tiny little fairy letters.

I will tell them of the real world. But I will recommend they never go there.

 

[soluble duck]

Yeh it is nice for little children, but you do grow up. And the teacher's belief is somewhat disturbing.

 

[Masseuse]

Yeh it is nice for little children, but you do grow up. And the teacher's belief is somewhat disturbing.

Well of course you grow up - but a lot of these stories are symbolic and archetypal and can be engaged with at any age. When you say "be;ief" do you mean she took the stories literally, or that you assumed she took them literally?

Any belief system pursued in an evangelical matter using guilt or the fear of being pushed out as motivation (as in "you're not a proper Steiner") is problematic of course. But I find the wholesale acceptance of the ideology running through the State school system far more worrying than a few schools harping on about pixies.

I'm going to start the Massy School for Space Bunnies and tell stories about wee!

 

[soluble duck]

Where can I sign up?

I agree with your points, what I really meant was the teacher's acceptance of talking about pixies etc as a form 'teaching' really just shows how out of touch they can be. My step mother is a Kindergarten teacher, so I see all that stuff frequently.

It is quite nice though

 

[Rocket no.9]

I voted scary.

Rudy on blonds:

"If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence."

These statements were made in the 1920s. In Germany.

More of the above with added anti-semitism aplenty from here

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I went to a Steiner school until Year 6, and my experiences were mixed too.

I think there isnt enough diversity of people there, most are new-age, middle-class hippy types. This lead, certainly at the school i went to, to the pupils feeling very different to normal state school pupils, and not really recognizing them in town etc. Also, the word i would describe 'Steiner-ites' (as i used to call us), is airy-fairy- so many of them dont seem to have a grip on the real world. Also, the fact that there is money involved means that there is corruption. This has certainly started to take place at the Steiner school i went to.

Also, the money issue meant that myself and my brothers were forced to leave the School because, following my parents divorce, which was quite 'messy', we couldn't afford the £1000 a term fee. There is definately a community there, but it is easily swayed against you, as in my families case, you do not appear to be a 'good' Steiner follower. This was noticeable in my lessons where one teacher made comments about me 'not staying for that much longer'.

As far as education goes , I found it not to be very challenging, and there is definately too big an emphasis on creativity as some simply arent creative.

However, I would agree that at an early age, up until about 5, it is a nice environment to learn.

Why hasnt anyonme mentioned Eurythmy by the way.... what a load of completely pointless pretentious crap.....and it resulted in the Eurythmics as well

Now these are the reasons we decided against steiner education eventually.
There was this whole 'believers' thing and I was decidedly worried about the eurythmy stuff.
I realised that no matter how good an environment it appeared she would probably never fit in becuase we dont believe the stuff that the school did and I wasnt prepared to pretend that I did believe it and wasnt happy to send her to a school where I couldnbt challenge the stuff that they did and ask them to justify its benefits. I was worried she would be made to feel different and subsequently fit nowhere
They didnt really want to answer the questions I had on steiner education nor sell themselves as other schools did. You either trusted them totally and immersed your kids in it and had faith in the school or you didnt and that was fine but your kids wouldnt be welcome.
Too much of an unknown for me to cope with Im afraid

 

[Rocket no.9]

Not fluffy. Not airy-fairy. Just nasty, sick racist shit in abundance...with Deutsche Volkishness, elves, Atlanteans and 'science of the spirit' popping up everywhere.

"The offspring of endogamy inherited with the related blood the old capacity for wisdom in the etheric body. But as blood became more and more mixed--as a result of increasing intermarriage among tribes--the possibility of handing down the ancient wisdom diminished; ..."
(Steiner, 1909, GSJ p. 226)

Or consider:

"The greatest part of the Atlantean population declined, and from a small portion are descended the so-called Aryans who comprise present-day civilized humanity. According to the nomenclature of the science of the spirit, the Lemurians, Atlanteans and Aryans are *root races* of mankind."
(Steiner, 1904, CM p. 48)

Just mad.

 

[wake_up]

i agree

I too have known an ex-steiner pupil- though i didn't really know about the schools' 'teaching methods' at that time. I have vague recolections of being immpressed with what they told me about the learing being focused on each child's potential.

When I knew that person, some of their behavoir seemed a little eccentric and their attitudes towards other peolple (especially those involved in the sciences) was perplexingly naive and aloof. I did not think to much of this at the time and indeed only knew this person briefly.

However, Now I know more about the schools I can see EXACTLY where that person was comming from and,to be frank, it's not just new-age hippy wank...it's much more scary.

Having heard testimonies from others (including people on this site) I was struck by how often the same vocabulary was used to describe the steiner product ( and how accuratly they described the former pupil I knew). Granted, 'studious' and 'intelligent' croped up alot; but so too did 'stoner' 'blinkered view of life' 'superiority' 'aryan'.

I can of course only jugde by my experiences with an ex Waldorf student and by stuff that i've read (mostly on the net). But from what I can tell, Waldorf schools are an excelent idea if you want your kids to grow up to be arrogant, naive under educated cult victims with a startling lack of preparation for real life, and an inability to critisise their indoctrination (despite the scars being clear to everyone else).

I would like to know what others think. Thank you.

 

[Rocket no.9]

...But from what I can tell, Waldorf schools are an excelent idea if you want your kids to grow up to be arrogant, naive under educated cult victims with a startling lack of preparation for real life, and an inability to critisise their indoctrination (despite the scars being clear to everyone else).

Hmmn,

Don't know if this applies to all of them, but to a significant minority for sure. Anyway, if they are the children of "a certain type of very brisk & confident middle class hippy" ( @ Ms Ordinary!) then they won't suffer too much in the bug, bad world...

Anyway, back to the slagging off. I challenge anyone to read the following with a straight face:

"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

"...People were frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
"But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp. 36-37)

Naaah, mate!!

 

[soluble duck]

I think people claiming the Waldorf/Steiner schools are some sort of cult is pushing it a bit, but I would agree that it has the potential to do so.

Have there been any studies into the 'cult' nature of present day Steiner schools? There is a Steiner book on our shelf called 'The Occult and Science' but I am interested in modern day schools.

This interests me because the Steiner school seems to have many rituals, pagan in this country, such as Maypole dancing, and a few million others. Also, the race thing is also interesting as we learnt ALOT about myths, particularly Norse and Greek myths.

As regards to comments about indoctrination, I would not agree, as I spent my whole time at the Steiner school hating its philosophy, but then this may be due to my parents, who were not the most zealous Steiner fanatics- my dad a stoner and mother, more of a Steiney.

 

[Dubversion]

so here's a thing:

if you knew someone who's heart was set on sending their kid to a Steiner school. indeed, was moving area, selling a house and everything, to do so, and you'd read the stuff on this thread, how would you tackle it?

the thing is, the person involved - you see, this isn't hypothetical - may think this is right up her street. but to go to her with reams of evidence about how fucking dodgy Steiner schools appear to be might be destructive of someone's relationship with them..

 

[soluble duck]

hmmmm what a dilly of a pickle

 

[Rocket no.9]

................Gently steer their browser (if they use one) towards http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=2898&page=1&pp=20

It's a decent, but fluffy and bourgeois American site with a very good-mannered, detailed and thoughtful thread examining all the aspects of Waldorf-Steiner schools that make me want to vomit. It should at least give your friend reason to pause.

Failing that, give thej child some brown and black crayons to take to school and see what happens...

 

[wake_up]

Calling all ex-steiner pupils (and current one's too)

Many of us in this forum who have little/no experience of Waldorf Schools are trying, I think with open minds, to understand the steiner phenomenon. Although I can only speak for myself, I am finding that alot of people are posting conflicting views withought enough backround knowledge. This, I feel, may be prejudinsing people's opinions one way or the other.

Therefore, I would be grateful to anyone reading this thread who is/has been to a steiner school (especialy in the uk) if they would tell us about their own views and experiences.

I especially think it would be enlightening to know what you are/have been taught vis a vis anthroposphy and what your curriculum entails/entailed.
For example, I have heard of exsteiner's going on to careers in the arts, but what if a child wants to be a psysicist, chemist or lawer? Are these aspects of the system lacking?

Many Thanks.

 

[pogofish]

I especially think it would be enlightening to know what you are/have been taught vis a vis anthroposphy and what your curriculum entails/entailed.

For example, I have heard of exsteiner's going on to careers in the arts, but what if a child wants to be a psysicist, chemist or lawer? Are these aspects of the system lacking?

Very little was taught to us on Anthroposphy. Indeed, it was the most ideology-free school I've ever attended. Will try to post more of what I can remember about the curriculum. Although my school was not a Waldorf establishment, rather it followed Stiener principles using mainly Steiner trained teachers though. Most of the staff at the three Steiner communities in this area sent their kids there, rather than to the local Waldorf school.

I would agree that it was probably lacking for science, & technology - other than Natural History/Biology/Ecology based science, that was well suited & taught. Pupils showing interest in subjects like chemistry & maths were encouraged but specialist teachers/tutors were brought-in.

 

[wake_up]

Steiner Schools and Society

Sorry, forgot to add:

I would like to know what people think of steiner education in realtion to society as a whole. For example, what we think of it as a fee-paying instition? is the steiner bastion of middleclass self interest ignoring those less fortunate? what lessons are there for the state sector? that kind of thing...

 

[christonabike]

Do you have to pay for it?

 

[wake_up]

Do you have to pay for it?

Of course. They are independent schools. Though i think they offer bursaries, esp to special needs pupils ( please correct me if any of this is wrong!)

As I have said before; I have only known one former steiner pupil, but seem to recollect them mentioning figures of around £4000 per annum for their London School.

 

[christonabike]

I didn't know that

So, it's mainly for people with dosh to spare

I would have to agree with this:

"the steiner bastion of middleclass self interest ignoring those less fortunate"

selective editing




Cheers

 

[wake_up]

"So, it's mainly for people with dosh to spare"


I should add that I recently read something about Steiner schools to get (more) state funding ( and hopefully therefore more ofsted regulation!)

think it's estelle morris' idea. Could be wrong though cos i think she's retiring from government to go back into academia. (I should read the papers more often!)