"An open debate on working class representation". An open debate allows people to put forward their views vis a vis working class representation. If the SWP believes that Respect can offer 'working class representation', then it is entitled to argue that at this conference.
RMT Organised Open Debate 21st Jan 2006
- Thread starter greenman
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, the other part of this:mattkidd12 said:
"In other words, they will be going along to put forward Respect as the already existing alternative and to argue against anybody who is calling for a new party. Respect already is the new party, anyone who disagrees is a "sectarian element who would wish to use the conference to undermine Respect". Right Matt?"
Stop pretending Matt. You don't believe in any of this shit anymore.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
mattkidd12 said:
It's perfectly entitled to argue anything it likes. Nobody is arguing for the SWP to be gagged. Which doesn't make its position of unfurling the red banner and declaring that the answer is already here any less sectarian. Although when I say "red banner" I suppose I should really substitute "pale pink banner with a bit of Islamic green trim" in the case of Respect.
Respect is a tiny organisation with very little social weight. Demanding that the only remaining mass organisations of the working class give it their support as the only way forward shows a total absence of a sense of perspective. And the thing is, that would be true even if Respect was politically better than it actually is.
Neither of us truely believes any of that strawman created by SPew to justify their abstention from the first electorial breakthrough the left has managed outside Labour in donkeys years. Any attempt to ignore or sidelie the experience of Respect is the genuinely sectarian attitude. SPews attitude to its "campaign for a new workers party" says it all really. While SWP comrades will be able to present tanigible proof that the left can organise to defeat New Labour the Millies will be arguing the same abstract shite they have been since their inception.
Respect is a a geninue attempt to organise alongside new and wider social forces to challenge the grip of Labour over the w/c and social movements. In the absense of mass w/c action the SWP argues for a working class orientation as hard as SPew. Engaging with every "spark" of rank and file resistance from the gate gourmet workers to the rolls royce dispute and arguing it through Respect with both the increased profile and new activists from different backgrounds Respect has brought together. Spew is reduced to being a propagandist group with a hold on a few union NECs.
If Respect wasn't presented at the conference as a real step forwards for working class representation it would be a blow for both the left generally and Union militants looking for alternatives from New Labour.
Respect is a a geninue attempt to organise alongside new and wider social forces to challenge the grip of Labour over the w/c and social movements. In the absense of mass w/c action the SWP argues for a working class orientation as hard as SPew. Engaging with every "spark" of rank and file resistance from the gate gourmet workers to the rolls royce dispute and arguing it through Respect with both the increased profile and new activists from different backgrounds Respect has brought together. Spew is reduced to being a propagandist group with a hold on a few union NECs.
If Respect wasn't presented at the conference as a real step forwards for working class representation it would be a blow for both the left generally and Union militants looking for alternatives from New Labour.
Nigel Irritable said:
No ones demanding anything - thats another strawman. We will argue for union involvment in Respect for the same reason we argued for Union involvement in stop the war. The Unions need to be central to the movements at the fore of challenging New Labours agenda. Stw and Respect have involved a new generation of radical activists which the unions badly need and the movements badly need the social weight of the unions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Hey Spew - fuck me, what four years too late lev.
Your final para sums it all up.
Your final para sums it all up.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's not saying that you don't argue for union involvement...oh god why bother? You also present another whole raft of other things as done.levien said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
To what? Your awful defence and attempt to pretend that unions alrready support RESPECT instead of your fervent wish that this was the case? No, i've nothing to add to that - i've no need to.levien said:
butchersapron said:
Respect is an open formation because we don't think there are enough forces involved for it to be the "finished article." On one hand people hit out at Respect for not putting together a complete program and on the other hand you get this. What do we present as "done" other then the successful defeat of a Blairite pro war MP by a new left formation and the likely addition of a raft of councillors in the new year?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, this means nothing. I've never hit out at RESPECT for "not putting together a complete program". I've never commented on anything of that type. Nor would i. What an odd thing to claim.levien said:
As for 'this' - well, it would help if you tell me what you think you're talking about.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Right so you agree then with Nigel that you'll be going there to present yourself as the already constituted aprty and all other options be damned. If not, then you don't yet realise a damn thing about your own parties 5 year plan.levien said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I didn't use any 'we' - i did use your direct reply to me and silly me, guess what - thought that you were talking to me rather than someone else.levien said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, RESPECT members, including yourself have often presented union support as already exising for RESPECT. When what's true is that few local branches of two unions have bunged you a few quid and there's been no affiliantions at all. If you're now begining to realise this, i can only say it's about time.levien said:
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
These kind of posts from Levein are like an SWP version of that random Daily Mail headline generator website. "new and wider social forces... breakthrough... challenge the grip of Labour... new activists... real step forward... looking for alternatives... central to the movements challenging New Labours agenda... new generation of radical activists..."
It's all bollocks basically. Self deluding bluster. What are the facts? Respect is an organisation of a few thousand paper members, very few of them constituting a "new generation of radical activists". It's not "central to the movements challenging New Labours agenda", its an electoral project for a maverick social democrat MP using a small Trotskyist organisation to provide the footsoldiers and some Muslim "community leaders" to muster the votes.
Levein no doubt can convince himself of anything he likes. That's a necessary skill for anyone to stay around the SWP as long as he has. It wasn't so long ago that he was telling us that the SWP has 18,000 members. The fact that he had obviously never seen these members because they were figments of his imagination didn't make him any less convinced. It was true in some higher, spiritual (dialectical?) sense. Just like the overwhelming successes of the Respect coalition in being "central to challenging New Labour's agenda". Not to mention its enormous breakthrough.
The conference in January is important for anyone interested in political action by the trade unions. It isn't going to launch a new party but it could be an important step along the way. Anyone who is really interested in working class political representation and organisation should try to get along and more importantly get their union branch to send delegates and engage in the discussion about what path we need to take.
The likes of Levein and the rest of the SWP/Respect will be there too, but not to take part in a dialogue. Instead their contribution will be to declare that the answer is already here and they are it. The revolutionary politics may have been replaced by a new watered down version but the organisational sectarianism remains. In a world beset by constant change it's somehow reassuring to remember that some things always remain the same.
It's all bollocks basically. Self deluding bluster. What are the facts? Respect is an organisation of a few thousand paper members, very few of them constituting a "new generation of radical activists". It's not "central to the movements challenging New Labours agenda", its an electoral project for a maverick social democrat MP using a small Trotskyist organisation to provide the footsoldiers and some Muslim "community leaders" to muster the votes.
Levein no doubt can convince himself of anything he likes. That's a necessary skill for anyone to stay around the SWP as long as he has. It wasn't so long ago that he was telling us that the SWP has 18,000 members. The fact that he had obviously never seen these members because they were figments of his imagination didn't make him any less convinced. It was true in some higher, spiritual (dialectical?) sense. Just like the overwhelming successes of the Respect coalition in being "central to challenging New Labour's agenda". Not to mention its enormous breakthrough.
The conference in January is important for anyone interested in political action by the trade unions. It isn't going to launch a new party but it could be an important step along the way. Anyone who is really interested in working class political representation and organisation should try to get along and more importantly get their union branch to send delegates and engage in the discussion about what path we need to take.
The likes of Levein and the rest of the SWP/Respect will be there too, but not to take part in a dialogue. Instead their contribution will be to declare that the answer is already here and they are it. The revolutionary politics may have been replaced by a new watered down version but the organisational sectarianism remains. In a world beset by constant change it's somehow reassuring to remember that some things always remain the same.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
levien said:
I would be interested in hearing the evidence for your claim that Matt Wrack supports Respect.
butchersapron said:
1st its party's not parties and secondly are you drunk already? No I don't think we are going to put our selves as a final product but we will hopefully put our selves across as an already costituted party (which by all accounts we are.) Now to slightly more complicated points that I'll seperate out."
1)Its not sectarian to promote the most successful left electorial project in the country which isn't the same as any other options be damned.
2)It is all other options which are pushed as a form of opposition to Respect be damned ie the "campaign for a new workers party." Which is what Nigel really means. - We are going to oppose the SP/WP line as abstract bollocks which undemines the real break throughs that have been made.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
"1st its party's not parties and secondly are you drunk already? No I don't think we are going to put our selfs (and so on) as a final product but we will hopefully put our selfs across as an already costituted party (which by all accounts we are.) Now to slightly more complicated points that I'll seperate out."
I love kids.
I love kids.
JoePolitix
Gone
Nigel Irritable said:
‘hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.’ - Oscar Wilde
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
levien said:
1) It is the way you're already promoting it. Which is clearly with no other option as a posible outcome.
2) See above.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
levien said:
Meaningless. Yes you'll be saying that Respect needs to take on more flesh, needs the involvement of the unions, needs to build on whatever, blah blah blah, but centrally you will be saying that Respect is the party we all need and we should stop this chatter about working class representation and join up.
levien said:
Of course this only makes sense when you realise that any other option than "Join Respect for the answer to your problems is here already" is inherently, by its very nature, something which has to be filed under point 2 - "a form of opposition to Respect".
It's the narcissism typical of the sectarian. Everything only exists in relation to the sect itself and whatever its latest project is. Nothing can really be evaluated in the context of the trade union movement and building working class representation, it can only be looked at in terms of its relationship to Respect. Because Respect, with its four thousand paper members, is the real action.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
JoePolitix said:
Hilarious Joe. One of these days you may actually make a political point of some substance and the boards will collectively melt down in shock.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Don't tell him what he does believe in. Wave good bye.levien said:
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Some years ago the Socialist Party in Ireland produced a pamphlet explaining the differences between our politics and methods and those of the SWP. It was one of my favourite left wing publications and I think it captured very accurately most of the problems with the SWP. Unfortunately much of it is now outdated - it simply doesn't make sense to critique the current incarnation of the SWP in terms of its infantile revolutionary posturing, because it has moved so far to the right. However, some parts of the pamphlet still hold true. There is one passage in particular which describes the SWP's methods in relation to the trade union movement:
The remarkable thing about the SWP/Respect's attitude towards things like the RMT conference is that while the politics have changed utterly, the sectarian method remains exactly the same. They are now arguing on behalf of warmed over reformism, but the same sect mentality is at work.
The Struggle For Socialism Today said:
The remarkable thing about the SWP/Respect's attitude towards things like the RMT conference is that while the politics have changed utterly, the sectarian method remains exactly the same. They are now arguing on behalf of warmed over reformism, but the same sect mentality is at work.
Nigel Irritable said:
You’re missing the point by skim reading my appalling typing. There is a difference between something which is pushed as a conscious opposition to Respect (ie the Wp/Spew varieties of a “campaign for a new workers party”) and genuine movements towards workers representation. In other words you are conflating your own campaign with the campaign you wish the RMT were leading. If the RMT/FBU/PCS were pushing a similar campaign the whole ball game would have changed
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