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RMT and ASLEF drivers take action to protect our safety

Groucho

Wrapped in plastic
The Northern Line is shutting down. Emergency breaks are not working so trains can fly through red lights. Until this is fixed the drivers unions have demanded two drivers to ensure that trains do not go through red lights. Management have refused.

A test this am showed that trains are still passing through red lights. This could cause a major disaster - collission with untold consequences.

The action being taken to protect us is deemed illegal! Drivers are losing pay. :mad:
 
Kid_Eternity said:
Oh right so that's why the Northern Line was fucked last Friday, signal failure indeed...

It's even more fucked now. Drivers are walking out.

The failure to properly fix the safety breaks has been blamed on a private contractors' contractors!
 
Groucho said:
...The action being taken to protect us is deemed illegal! Drivers are losing pay. :mad:
Can it be legal to force drivers (on pain of salary deductions) to work in unsafe, potentially life threatening conditions? :eek:
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Can it be legal to force drivers (on pain of salary deductions) to work in unsafe, potentially life threatening conditions? :eek:

The law is clear...

Workers have the legal right to refuse to work in unsafe conditions. If they or anyone else is put at risk they have the right to walk out. If they do walk out management have the right to refuse to pay them.

If an accident occured the management could be taken to court in and such circumstances as these, where the danger is known and ignored by themanagement, a succesful prosecution would be likely.

However, if management claim breach of contract in the face of a walkout they could take action against the RMT for supporting the 'unofficial' wildcat walk-out. The union would then need to show that working conditions are unsafe. In this dispute, they would have a very good chance of doing so. So there is little likelihood of such legal action being taken.

So it is as clear as mud. But yes, workers can be forced to work in unsafe conditions on pain of salary deduction, but if an accident occurs the bosses could be done for corporate manslaughter.

Look out for headlines declaring the RMT to be dinosaurs demanding two drivers per train - what utter madness!! etc etc.
 
There has to be more to this story than is reaching the public domain. With incidents in recent times and reports of fines only in last weeks newspapers. Any of the Train Operating Companies, whether underground or mainline would never run a train with a documented fault in one of the major safety sytems. It would begger belief and the union would have already taken legal proceedings.
 
oneflewover said:
There has to be more to this story than is reaching the public domain. With incidents in recent times and reports of fines only in last weeks newspapers. Any of the Train Operating Companies, whether underground or mainline would never run a train with a documented fault in one of the major safety sytems. It would begger belief and the union would have already taken legal proceedings.

LU are not denying it. They stated that the fault had been fixed. They ran a test which showed otherwise. They are blaming the contractors.

It is very naive to imagine that bosses in the UK will not continue to take risks with people's lives. This is certainly true of rail companies despite prosecutions.
 
fairplay to the drivers - now i wouldnt want to tell RMT members how to suck eggs or nowt but couldnt they just sit in the canteen and refuse to drive the trains until the problems are sorted? when i advised my members that it was unsafe to work in our warehouse in my capacity as a health and safety rep - we sat in the canteen and refused to work until the problem was solved, we didnt walk off site, and we still got paid - were we just lucky :confused:

anyway good luck to 'em, are they doing collections and stuff?
 
This is still ongoing. However for my Oyster card I got this emil from TFL:
I am writing to let you know that the Northern line is not running today due to problems connected to the signalling system.
What lying tossers!

4 drivers have been suspended, RMT says they'll ballot for strike action if they're not re-instated.
 
If the drivers have made management aware of the problem and nothing is being done about it, I don't see what alternative, to walking out, the drivers have.

rednblack said:
we sat in the canteen and refused to work until the problem was solved
You had a canteen? You were lucky!
 
RMT secretary Bob Crow said: "Our members have the legal right to refuse to undertake duties that would put themselves or the travelling public in danger."

The RMT established this as a right within LUL following our refusal to work on safety grounds during the FBU dispute; the company settled out of court (well, in the canteen at the Employment Tribunal to be exact) so there's no case law but at least we have established the right within LUL.

The business about "signalling problems" last week, to be fair, isn't so far from the truth because the Underground automatic train protection (ATP) on all lines other than the Central, is directly and mechanically linked to signals. If a train goes past a signal at danger a metal rod attached to the signal activates the train's emergency brake system. It is this ATP that's prevented the sort of accidents seen on the main line service which has no similar system.

As drivers we are taught that this is a "fail-safe" system, so to find out that it isn't can be quite a shock. The number of signals passed at danger (SPADs) on LUL is quite high, but accidents are avoided by the ATP. On the Northern Line the ATP has failed on numerous occasions; we are demanding double crewing not because we're lonely but because if one driver collapses over the controls the second will avert a tragedy.

Both drivers' unions, ASLE&F and RMT (currently 50% membership each) have rightly taken a hard line over this in supporting their driver members. A gung-ho manager on the Northern Line sent home a number of drivers without pay which is what has prompted the strike ballot calls. It is unlikely it'll come to this as senior managers are a bit more clued up about the law and industrial relations in the run-up to 2012.

Essentially the Northern Line is currently unsafe; managers wanted to run it anyway; the drivers at the pointy ends refused; the unions backed up their members. The drivers on this occasion, as on many others, are showing a more responsible attitude to the safety of their passengers than are the managers.

The "internal market" that arose through the privatisation of the maintenance section is seriously undermining safety in every area across the whole of the combine. It's only a matter of time before poor maintenace results in a disaster on the Tube. Everyone acknowledges this privately, but all those senior managers now earning in excess of £100,000 pa are keeping schtum.
 
Groucho said:
The failure to properly fix the safety breaks has been blamed on a private contractors' contractors!

I'm not the RMTs biggest fan but they are right here. Listening to the TfL guy on the radion apprantly everyone has looked at this fault including their own people and it's just a tricky one to reslove rather than the fault of evil private contractors.
 
Oxpecker said:
RMT secretary Bob Crow said: "Our members have the legal right to refuse to undertake duties that would put themselves or the travelling public in danger."

The RMT established this as a right within LUL following our refusal to work on safety grounds during the FBU dispute; the company settled out of court (well, in the canteen at the Employment Tribunal to be exact) so there's no case law but at least we have established the right within LUL.

The business about "signalling problems" last week, to be fair, isn't so far from the truth because the Underground automatic train protection (ATP) on all lines other than the Central, is directly and mechanically linked to signals. If a train goes past a signal at danger a metal rod attached to the signal activates the train's emergency brake system. It is this ATP that's prevented the sort of accidents seen on the main line service which has no similar system.

As drivers we are taught that this is a "fail-safe" system, so to find out that it isn't can be quite a shock. The number of signals passed at danger (SPADs) on LUL is quite high, but accidents are avoided by the ATP. On the Northern Line the ATP has failed on numerous occasions; we are demanding double crewing not because we're lonely but because if one driver collapses over the controls the second will avert a tragedy.

Both drivers' unions, ASLE&F and RMT (currently 50% membership each) have rightly taken a hard line over this in supporting their driver members. A gung-ho manager on the Northern Line sent home a number of drivers without pay which is what has prompted the strike ballot calls. It is unlikely it'll come to this as senior managers are a bit more clued up about the law and industrial relations in the run-up to 2012.

Essentially the Northern Line is currently unsafe; managers wanted to run it anyway; the drivers at the pointy ends refused; the unions backed up their members. The drivers on this occasion, as on many others, are showing a more responsible attitude to the safety of their passengers than are the managers.

The "internal market" that arose through the privatisation of the maintenance section is seriously undermining safety in every area across the whole of the combine. It's only a matter of time before poor maintenace results in a disaster on the Tube. Everyone acknowledges this privately, but all those senior managers now earning in excess of £100,000 pa are keeping schtum.

Thanks for this account Oxpecker, lots of new information as far as I'm concerned, the bit in bold is the key to it I reckon.

I'm sure the Evening Substandard version is different though :p :mad:
 
Oxpecker said:
The "internal market" that arose through the privatisation of the maintenance section is seriously undermining safety in every area across the whole of the combine. It's only a matter of time before poor maintenace results in a disaster on the Tube. Everyone acknowledges this privately, but all those senior managers now earning in excess of £100,000 pa are keeping schtum.

It isn't unheard of for private compainies to run safe mass transport systems.
 
oneflewover said:
There has to be more to this story than is reaching the public domain. With incidents in recent times and reports of fines only in last weeks newspapers. Any of the Train Operating Companies, whether underground or mainline would never run a train with a documented fault in one of the major safety sytems. It would begger belief and the union would have already taken legal proceedings.

It looks like my belief has been beggered. It is staggering that they can run these trains. On saturday i shall be through London on the way to Southampton, thank goodness it wont be via the Northern.
 
scott_forester said:
I'm not the RMTs biggest fan but they are right here. Listening to the TfL guy on the radion apprantly everyone has looked at this fault including their own people and it's just a tricky one to reslove rather than the fault of evil private contractors.

It may be a "tricky one to resolve" but I have no doubt that it should be resolved prior to allowing passengers to ride on the trains. The private contractors may not be evil - whatever that means - but their primary responsibility is to their shareholders and if they don't provide trains for service they are fined. So it is in their interests to provide trains if there is a reasonable chance that they won't kill anyone.

If you're interested I can give you a whole list of safety-critical procedures / equipment which are compromised in the interests of profit over safety.
 
yeah fair play to them, i use the northern line every day, and the infrastructure there is getting worse and worse so it seems, both the tracks and the trains

was there not a bit crash in the 70's that killed 50 people which resulted in the emergency brakes being installed in the first place?
 
oisleep said:
yeah fair play to them, i use the northern line every day, and the infrastructure there is getting worse and worse so it seems, both the tracks and the trains

was there not a bit crash in the 70's that killed 50 people which resulted in the emergency brakes being installed in the first place?

Moorgate?
 
oisleep said:
yeah fair play to them, i use the northern line every day, and the infrastructure there is getting worse and worse so it seems, both the tracks and the trains

Not trying to argue with you, because this dispute does seem to be about dodgy safety risks with both signalling and trains, but I have to say the previous generation of Northern Line trains (were they not replaced about three or four years ago?) seemed even worse from a passenger's point of view, in my recollection ...

I like the new ones, but then again I'm only an occasional NL traveller, and I didn't know anything about what Oxpecker and others have been posting in this thread until today ....
 
Oxpecker said:
If you're interested I can give you a whole list of safety-critical procedures / equipment which are compromised in the interests of profit over safety.

I'm interested :)
 
well based on tube lines own reporting, they had a great 3 months the last report they did, as they achieved the grand total of 1 day in that period of 3 months, where they had no incidents which resulted in service interuption, apparently that quarter for tubelines was one of their best ever (when taken in with the other lines they run, jubilee & picadilly)

quarterly performance reports from tubeline and other stuff
 
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