Rivers of Blood.
- Thread starter tbaldwin
- Start date
butchersapron said:
I am not sure that he was wrong about everything butchers.
"Of course, it will not be evenly distributed from Margate to Aberystwyth and from Penzance to Aberdeen. Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population".
tbaldwin said:
Of course that has come true, but so what?
How could that be reversed? It couldn't. Would it be desirable to try and reverse it? No it wouldn't. It's as relevant as saying 'if Hitler had won the war'.I'd be happy to see restrictions on *further* immigration, *purely* on the grounds of space, but we are living in a multi-cultural society, it's going to stay that way and I suggest we all just get on with it.
i used to mock and attack anyone who thought there was an once of truth in Powells speech .. partly due to the irony of him being Health Secretary and heliping to import many mignrants to work in the NHS .. sadly i see that 25+ years of thatcherism have, from what i can see in london, INCREASED segregation
.. london is definatly more divided on racial ( and class) lines than it was 20 years ago .. the process toward a multi cultural society stopped many years ago .. not due to ideology but economic policy .. we now have massive communities of alienated youth but who unlike in the 8ts seem to have no links with other communities
i honestly do fear the fallout from when the economic shit ( debt crisis etc ) hits the fan
.. london is definatly more divided on racial ( and class) lines than it was 20 years ago .. the process toward a multi cultural society stopped many years ago .. not due to ideology but economic policy .. we now have massive communities of alienated youth but who unlike in the 8ts seem to have no links with other communities
i honestly do fear the fallout from when the economic shit ( debt crisis etc ) hits the fan
Where do you live in London in Durruti?
In the South I don't see that at all - areas which were formerly the heartblood of the NF/BNP - Tyndall's old stomping ground in Mitcham for example - are far more mixed than ever they were when I was a nipper. No go areas for immigrants now have corner shops selling yams and plantains,and the schools and streets are far more mixed as a whole. Definitely progress
Central London is perhaps increasingly dominated by wealthy types, but it's not rocket science to see why.
In the South I don't see that at all - areas which were formerly the heartblood of the NF/BNP - Tyndall's old stomping ground in Mitcham for example - are far more mixed than ever they were when I was a nipper. No go areas for immigrants now have corner shops selling yams and plantains,and the schools and streets are far more mixed as a whole. Definitely progress
Central London is perhaps increasingly dominated by wealthy types, but it's not rocket science to see why.
I do not know about rivers of crud but this thread contains blitherers of crud
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
keicar said:
I think it depends whether multculturalism means a healthy mixing of cultures (a good thing, obviously) or ends up being meaning divided, seperated and ghettoised communities.
An interesting article on this:
http://www.iwca.info/cgi-bin/iwcanews.pl?record=12
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Yes, I think that's sadly true. It's become very noticable recently - despite all the empty "One London" slogans.durruti02 said:
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Yes, but do the various community groupings within them mix with each other very much? Do they shop in each other's different genres of shops? What I've noticed more and more in London is a sense of a myriad of different groupings all continuing seperate existances and having very little interaction or mixing with each other.tarannau said:
poster342002 said:
That article, which quotes the Evening fucking Standard of all things, is a bit soft minded and arbitrary though isn't it?
How many other countries with a significant muslim population don't encounter similar issues. And therefore would you necessarily say that it was a failing of multiculturalism, of of aspects of religion?
And besides, how come it's the muslims who get singled out with this type of accusation. 'Keeping it in the community' has been a popular mantra for years, not least in the Jewish and Chinese communities.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I think it was just an example being used. But, yeah, they could perhaps have widened it or used a few more examples. I think it highlights the dangers of sectarianism,though.
poster342002 said:
In a word yes. Go to a pub like the Moon in Norbury and see how successfully mixed it is now - when I ran it, around 10 years ago, the place had a renown locals and unpleasant vibe for anyone non-white. Now it's a melting pot.
Corner shops, convenience stores and dry cleaners are used by all. Restaurants as well regarded as Mirch Masala have sprung up, serving way more than the Bengali community. And the 'indian' grocery stores are a vast , cheaper improvement over what was there before.
Same applies to Brixton - I still shop in the market like most of my mum's generation, but there's a whole host of places that I go into now which we wouldn't have been particularly welcome in years back.
It's not perfect of course, but most of the resistance to mingling came from some of the antedeluvian residents who lived there before. Fuck 'em, wherever they've gone.
JoePolitix
Gone
It's about class... not race.
And dispite the all the scaremongering about "ghettos" and "self segregation", demographic research indicates that ethnically mixed neighbourhoods are on the rise:
http://www.hero.ac.uk/uk/inside_he/archives/2004/race_is_not_the_issue6204.cfm
tarannau said:
And dispite the all the scaremongering about "ghettos" and "self segregation", demographic research indicates that ethnically mixed neighbourhoods are on the rise:
http://www.hero.ac.uk/uk/inside_he/archives/2004/race_is_not_the_issue6204.cfm
Nice article, with some decent statistical analysis by the look of it. A far cry from the IWCA's deliberately weighted and alarmist article.
Backs up the experience of my family's generation as well. Of the same boatload that arrived in Brixton 30+ years ago, finding accommodation only in the same terraces around Railton and the hill, nearly all of them have moved out to the suburbs with family now - Mitcham, Norbury, Norwood, Thornton Heath. We've even got a good sized family encampment (3 houses) in Epsom of all places now - I'd never have believed that as a child!
Backs up the experience of my family's generation as well. Of the same boatload that arrived in Brixton 30+ years ago, finding accommodation only in the same terraces around Railton and the hill, nearly all of them have moved out to the suburbs with family now - Mitcham, Norbury, Norwood, Thornton Heath. We've even got a good sized family encampment (3 houses) in Epsom of all places now - I'd never have believed that as a child!
tarannau said:
Black flight eh......
Its similar in North London too...But its not all a rosy picture is it. As areas like Brixton and Hackney became cool it did enable those who owned properties to move to places like Enfield and Croydon etc.
Those terraces in Railton rd are now worth a fortune.
Margaret Thatcher famously said " We must do something about the inner cities" Looks like her plan to ship out more poor people has at least in part worked.
Look at House prices in the last 20 years. When i was a youngster the suburbs were far more expensive than areas like Brixton and Hackney but not anymore.
A friend of mine had to move to Hoddesdon in Herts to get a 3 bed place,cos he couldnt afford one in the area he grew up in Hackney...
There are loads of other people moving out....And the people moving in keep pushing up the prices of flats and houses.
The Black Hand
Unclean
JoePolitix said:
That is a good serious article worthy of further study and perhaps it has practical implications for political practice. Goes off to try and get a copy.
Oh shut up Balders - people didn't move because it became slightly trendy and house prices 'enabled' them to move. They moved because they were areas in flux - folks, from the West Indian side at least, generally wanted to move out to leafier places, with gardens, less crime and better schools for their childen. Not that many wanted to stay, or were in a position to speculate and invest in the often decrepit housing stock in Brixton and surrounds.
My parents alone turned down a rambling pile opposite Streatham Common station (no central heating) and a victorian near-mansion facing Clapham Common when I was a nipper, choosing to live in a 3-bed semi in Mitcham for much the same price. I could kick them now, but they thought that was a preferable option.
Which all again works against the 'ghetto' mentality that the IWCA article seems to suggest.
My parents alone turned down a rambling pile opposite Streatham Common station (no central heating) and a victorian near-mansion facing Clapham Common when I was a nipper, choosing to live in a 3-bed semi in Mitcham for much the same price. I could kick them now, but they thought that was a preferable option.
Which all again works against the 'ghetto' mentality that the IWCA article seems to suggest.
So what was all the shit about 'cool' and the usual Baldwinisms then? Doesn't that entirely contradict your 'black flight' opening.
And besides, when do you actually think that many of the original wave of immigrants owned their house on Railton road or wherever? Ownership came much later for most - it was often a choice between investing in bigger, often run down housing in the centre and smaller, all mod cons, housing in the suburbs
Stop acting the prat and I'll stop treating you like one.
And besides, when do you actually think that many of the original wave of immigrants owned their house on Railton road or wherever? Ownership came much later for most - it was often a choice between investing in bigger, often run down housing in the centre and smaller, all mod cons, housing in the suburbs
Stop acting the prat and I'll stop treating you like one.
tarannau said:
Sorry i dont really know what you think your responding to on here.
I dont see a contradiction between talking about Black flight and how areas like Brixton and Hackney became coool.
And i know lots of people who bought there ex council places in areas like that and now live in the suburbs.....
I think Black people moving in large numbers to areas like Edmonton and Thornton Heath aint all good what do you think?
But returning to Enoch.......
He never said that areas that immigrants moved too, would become seen as highly desirable and cool places to live did he.......
I dont know how much he said about immigration in later years.....
I do think he was a bit of a prat though....
He never said that areas that immigrants moved too, would become seen as highly desirable and cool places to live did he.......
I dont know how much he said about immigration in later years.....
I do think he was a bit of a prat though....
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