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Rip off Great Western rail bastards

Me and a friend wanted to go to Cardiff earlier this year on First Great Western.

When we checked the prices of advance (Apex?) tickets, 1st class didn't cost much more than standard. So we went in 1st. Is this an ulterior motive behind the pricing strategy -- make 1st class look affordable by bumping up standard prices? Conveniently benefiting the business travellers that First Great Western want to attract.
 
MullahNasrudin said:
When we checked the prices of advance (Apex?) tickets, 1st class didn't cost much more than standard. So we went in 1st. Is this an ulterior motive behind the pricing strategy -- make 1st class look affordable by bumping up standard prices?
If you book far enough in advance and there's an 'r' in the month and the wind is south-easterly you can manage to bag cheapo first class tickets.

Other times, you end up getting woefully ripped off.

Such us the idiocy of GW ticket pricing.
 
For future reference, you might want to try buying a family railcard - its £20 for a year but on a journey that expensive you might save more than £20 so it would be worth it for a one off purchase.

Can't recall exact details but its something like 1/3 off each adult & then kids ticket at 1/3 - at any rate it usually ends up that the child effectively travels for free.

Nobody needs to be related, but the ticket is in the name of the adult (or 2 named adults, either of whom can then use it as long as they've got a child in tow).

Can't use it solely within London / on very short journeys though, which is a shame.
 
PacificOcean said:
Our bridges are too low for that.

By and large they are, but the Southern Region of BR did try double-decker commuter trains in the late '40s. They did increase capacity, but they weren't nearly as spacious as continental double-deck trains and it took far too long to get people in and out at stations. Running longer trains was (and is) a much simpler and cheaper option.
 
Roadkill said:
Running longer trains was (and is) a much simpler and cheaper option.

That is quite costly too isn't though as a lot of stations are only long enough for eight cars? I remember in the mid 90's South Eastern extended some of their stations to accomdate 12 cars but it was expensive and took ages as they had to rebuild bridges and move points to extend the platforms.
 
PacificOcean said:
That is quite costly too isn't though as a lot of stations are only long enough for eight cars? I remember in the mid 90's South Eastern extended some of their stations to accomdate 12 cars but it was expensive and took ages as they had to rebuild bridges and move points to extend the platforms.

It is expensive and time-consuming, but a whole lot less so than reboring tunnels, lifting bridges, realigning roads etc etc.

Depends on the track layout too: if you've a junction right near a station then, as you suggest, you get into shifting points etc and that's very costly. If it's a station on a straight stretch of track then it's comparatively easy.

Major infrastructure works on railways are always expensive, and the current privatised set-up makes them far more so than they need to be.
 
Onket said:
The population isn't going down though. Re-bore the fucking tunnels!!!!

There are far more cost-effective ways of boosting rail capacity. Remember, double-deck trains are only viable on very heavily-used commuter routes and they do take longer to load and unload than normal trains, meaning that you can't run as intensive a service.

First, lengthen trains on heavily-used routes - see above.

Second, sort out the signalling. Some places are still using old-fashioned signalling systems that can't deal with more than a train every 20 minutes or so (and some places are still using mechanical semaphores!). Get these upgraded to allow heavier use of existing routes, and upgrade the track to allow higher speeds.

Third, start reversing some of the Beeching cuts in areas of population growth and where the network is already full to capacity - in particular, the old Great Central main line, the Manchester-Sheffield route via the Woodhead Tunnel, the Oxford-Cambridge link and some lines in the south east, to name but a few.

Fourth, there's been fairly serious talk about a dedicated north-south high-speed line for years. It'd be costly, but it'd be worth it, and together the GC line and Woodhead route make up much of a possible London-Manchester link.

Fifth, speed up the fecking Crossrail project and start looking at metro and light rail systems in other cities.

None of this will happen soon - or cost-effectively - without some major change in the structure of the industry. At the moment, the cost of infrastructure work is ridiculously high, and the number of competing players in the industry means that major projects take ages to agree on and even longer to complete. Renationalisation is the best solution in the short to medium term.
 
Roadkill said:
Third, start reversing some of the Beeching cuts in areas of population growth and where the network is already full to capacity - in particular, the old Great Central main line, the Manchester-Sheffield route via the Woodhead Tunnel, the Oxford-Cambridge link and some lines in the south east, to name but a few.
Bedfordshire County Council has just granted planning permission for a fucking boating lake to cut across the trackbed of the Oxford-Cambridge link and the government seems to have zero interest in stopping them.

http://www.brta.org.uk/html/rowing_lake.html
 
Roadkill said:
It'd be costly, but it'd be worth it, and together the GC line and Woodhead route make up much of a possible London-Manchester link.

I know we are not really supposed to use real names on here, but having googled it, I can't believe I have a abandonded line, tunnel and station with my surname!

Being down south I virtually never hear it used (I am told its a north east name)

Woodhead tunnel and station:

woodhead9.jpg
 
editor said:
135 facking quid for return tickets from London - Cardiff for two adults and one kid

How much do you think it "should" be then?

20 quid?

50 quid?

a hundred quid?

I can remember a BR ticket from Edinburgh to Dundee used to cost around a tenner each way at the end of the 70's travelling on a vile old piece of garbage last remodelled about twenty years previously.

That was crap value, thank heavens for the new rail companies with comfortable rollling stock.
 
Cobbles said:
That was crap value, thank heavens for the new rail companies with comfortable rollling stock.

Comfortable rolling stock like the Vermin Voyagers, half the size of the 125s they replaced and with permanently blocked bogs? Or like FGW's 'Adelante' trains, which have already been taken off some routes and the old British Rail 125s reinstated because the Adelantes are too noisy and hard-riding?

And as for value, what about this?

The standard rail fare between London and Manchester, for example, has gone up from £50 in BR days, to £92 now, a rise of 84 per cent compared with inflation during that time of 27 per cent. Indeed, a survey by the Liberal Democrats published at the weekend shows that Britain has the highest rail fares in Europe, nearly twice as expensive as countries such as France, Finland and Austria.

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/art...une17,03.shtml

or this?

Rail travel in the UK ten years after privatisation is perceived to be poor value for money. And for those passengers who do not succeed in getting cheap advance purchase tickets, train travel is poor value for money compared to other modes of transport. It is clear beyond reasonable doubt that walk-on fares in the UK are more expensive than equivalent tickets in many other European countries.

http://www.publications.parliament.u.../700/70007.htm

And if the rail network is so well run now, how do you account for all of this?

Within seven years [of privatisation] the railway was costing the taxpayer three times what it had cost before de-nationalisation (up from £1.3bn to £3.7bn). The historians Terry Gourvish and Christian Wolmar have charted the subsequent shambles as probably the worst case of Whitehall mismanagement of a British industry since 1945 (a competitive contest). In the 1980s fares covered 76% of rail costs, last year 42%. The government has restructured the industry three times, so it is renationalised in all but name, operating a myriad complex Whitehall sub-contracts. GNER's east coast route, profitable under British Rail, runs on a subsidy of £400m a year, half what the whole of BR cost in 1989. The operators recently demanded yet more subsidy on the grounds that they expected to carry 30% more passengers in 10 years' time. Surely that should mean less subsidy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1823828,00.html

You should stick to subjects you know about, Cobbles, because every time you post on the subject of railways you come across as laughably ill-informed.

BR was't perfect by any means, but the railways now cost about five times as much to run as they did under BR, and we certainly aren't seeing a service five times better. The reason for that is that, contrary to your ideologically-driven hatred of public sector concerns, BR in its later years (once its monumental fuck-ups of the 50s and 60s were behind it) made a good fist out of running a railway on a shoestring. As at least one former BR manager has pointed out, with the amount of money that's been poured down the privatsation drain over the last decade BR could have run a gold-plated service. Shame they weren't allowed the chance to try.
 
"Comfortable rolling stock like the Vermin Voyagers"

They're perfectly comfortable in first class - almost as comfy a seat as a decent car.

"And as for value"

I agree, it's frequently cheaper/more expedient to fly.

"You should stick to subjects you know about"

I've spent about £2,000 on rail travel since January - that's a lot of rail miles.

"BR was't perfect by any means, but the railways now cost about five times as much to run as they did under BR"

Presumably due to the levels of fare subsidy rather than expenditure on infrastructure.
 
Cobbles said:
How much do you think it "should" be then?

20 quid?

50 quid?

a hundred quid?
It should be cheap enough to encourage car drivers to up their polluting vehicles and take the train instead, with the prices backed up by a regular, reliable service with clean trains and decent connections.

I'd say £25-£35 is about right for a return 160x2 mile journey - assuming the thing turns up on time and is a presentable condition.

I paid £54 for an off peak return and I woz ripped.
 
Cobbles said:
"BR was't perfect by any means, but the railways now cost about five times as much to run as they did under BR"

Presumably due to the levels of fare subsidy rather than expenditure on infrastructure.
Not forgetting all the fat cats who have managed to extract big fat juicy payouts for themselves with each new franchise, of course.
 
Cobbles said:
"Comfortable rolling stock like the Vermin Voyagers"

They're perfectly comfortable in first class - almost as comfy a seat as a decent car.

Virtually any train is comfortable in first class. You pay for the extra space. For those of us who haven't that luxury, the Voyager is incredibly cramped. I've rarely been on one that wasn't overcrowded (several times to the point where the buffet had to close because you couldn't get to it), and the seats are far too upright and too close together. Such is what happens when you try and replace an eight-coach train with something half the size...

The Voyagers are IME noticeably noisier and harder-riding than the 125s too, mainly because of the underfloor engines.

"And as for value"

I agree, it's frequently cheaper/more expedient to fly.

Primarily because the railways are in such a state. That said, I've not used the Pendolino service (which itself is an updated version of BR's old APT project), but I read recently that it's forced some of the airlines into retreat on the London-Manchester route.

"You should stick to subjects you know about"

I've spent about £2,000 on rail travel since January - that's a lot of rail miles.

I've spent a lot on furniture recently, but that doesn't mean I know much about the furniture business.

"BR was't perfect by any means, but the railways now cost about five times as much to run as they did under BR"

Presumably due to the levels of fare subsidy rather than expenditure on infrastructure.

BR managed during the 80s on a subsidy of something like £1-2bn annually. That covered everything: infrastructure maintenance, rolling stock - everything not covered by fares which, as Simon Hughes (himself a former rail manager) points out in the link above, themselves covered 76% of costs. Nowadays, fares cover only 42% of costs whilst the railways are subsidised to the tune of £5bn+ per annum, plus whatever they can raise privately (the subsidies quoted above are at constant 2005 prices, btw). That's a vast amount of money for not a great deal of improvement.

The problem is that the 'contractual web' through which the railways are run is incredibly inefficient. Huge amounts of money are wasted in sorting out the relationships between companies and paying the various penalties built into the contracts; research and development within the industry virtually halted at privatisation so expertise has to be sources from outside, and large amounts of money are simply being taken out of the industry by several of the companies involved. infrastructure projects are now far more costly than they were.

BR was run on a shoestring, which is why stations were dilapidated and rolling stock often elderly (though one should point out that the Mk1 slam-door trains around London ran until last year...). But equally, by the early 90s Britain had a higher proportion of trains running at 100mph than anywhere else in Europe, the InterCity 125 had proved an enormous success and they managed the East Coast Main Line upgrade on time and within the budget. Compare that with the costly fiasco of the West Coast Main Line upgrade over the last few years. Meanwhile, punctuality rates have only recently returned to the levels they were at before the Hatfield crash in 2000, which themselves were lower than in the early '90s, and there's a huge and unsustainable mountain of debt building up over at Netowrk Rail. The railways might look reasonably stable at the moment, but sustainable the situation certainly is not.
 
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