Rip off Great Western rail bastards

[editor]

i found return tickets for a total of £69.50 for two adults and a child london waterloo -> cardiff.

ok the trains might not be right but you can tinker.

waterloo tues 18:50 - > 22:52

cardiff thurs 17:30 -> 21:49

Cheers for the effort, but they're the ones that go through fucking Salisbury and take over FOUR hours!!!

That's even slower than the bus and I'll be fucked if I'm going to give up over eight hours of my holiday break sat on a train going on a mystery trip!

 

[wiskey]

yeah i guess thats fair enough.

but if money is a real problem and you have to get somewhere the sailsibury route aint that bad really


(and i do it regularly cos my mother lives on the bit between salisbury and bath - so paddington - bristol would be useless for me).

 

[cybertect]

Does that take into account the materials and energy involved in manufacturing the car and extracting the petrol, the full environmental impact of cars and the increased noise/air pollution?

Either way, I haven't got a small, efficient car so it's all hot air innit.

I don't know, but the GWT main line is run with 30 year old diesel-electric 125s, which aren't exactly the cleanest locomotives on the network.

I was thinking more of the earlier suggestion of hiring.

Either way, fair enough.

 

[FruitandNut]

I look back with rose tinted specs to my young boyhood pre Beeching's Axe.

Tariffs were a lot more affordable and you could get to a heck of a lot more places by rail.

Ah, sweet memories of the LNER and the Mallard, Nigel Gres, Talisman, Cock of the North and the Flying Scotsman!
All that lovely soot, smoke and sulphur!

I am told that the current situation is to do with the march of 'progress'

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It's £135 for all three, and I'm paying.

well i guess on some level that's little consolation, I guess... still it's a hell of a lot it's still about a fiver over what you'd spend in petrol for one ticket...

 

[RaverDrew]

For what's it worth, letters of complaint have been sent to Great Western and local MP Tessa "no need to answer" Howell ("how does this huge fare tie in with Labour's claimed green transport policy?")

You might get a response if you send a letter to Tessa Jowell MP

 

[TeeJay]

According to the AA route planner driving from Brixton to Cardiff would be 153.9 miles and take 2hr 56min. Depending on the engine size and type this could cost about £20 in petrol (ie £40 return) although if you factored in the overall cost of owning and running a car at 40p/mile it would then be £120 return (as well as any parking costs and tolls).

 

[keefor]

It seems to be standard now that most railway companies offer cheaper singles than getting a return. I use the trains for going to away games and have got used to looking for different combinations of legs of journeys to get to football matches.

IMO if you are prepared to a) book early and b) have a bit of a hunt around for better value tickets you can avoid paying the 'full' fare.

Living in Southampton I make use of the Network SE card which gives you a third off fares within the area. I often get a reduced ticket up to the edge of the Network SE region and then another ticket to cover the remainder of the journey. This can be easily done booking tickets on line.

I guess that if you are used to looking for cheaper tickets then it is easier.

FWIW I looked up the Paddington - Cardiff journey (as a matter of interest) and found single tickets available for both directions at £40. (you have to travel after the peak early morning period).

 

[Roadkill]

I don't know, but the GWT main line is run with 30 year old diesel-electric 125s, which aren't exactly the cleanest locomotives on the network.

They're not, but emissions per passenger still stack up pretty well, given that the train carries several hundred people. Especially since many of them are now being re-engined to extend their active life.

Besides, they're above reproach IMO: they look good, they sound great, they're very quiet and comfortable inside and you can usually get a seat. Far better than a Virgin Voyager or one of FGW's stupid 'Adelante' things.

I think it's a nice irony that the 125s are so much more popular with passengers (and train crews IME, having chatted with a few) than the trains that were meant to replace them. And that most of the best long-distance services in the country are still using trains and infrastructure put in place by British Rail.

 

[editor]

According to the AA route planner driving from Brixton to Cardiff would be 153.9 miles and take 2hr 56min. Depending on the engine size and type this could cost about £20 in petrol (ie £40 return) although if you factored in the overall cost of owning and running a car at 40p/mile it would then be £120 return (as well as any parking costs and tolls).

Shame that doesn't factor in the pollution, the congestion and the environmental damage, innit?

 

[TeeJay]

Shame that doesn't factor in the pollution, the congestion and the environmental damage, innit?

Presumably the answer is to either raise the cost of motoring to the same or greater level or to reduce the cost of train journeys to the same or below that of motoring. This latter move could be achieved either by some sort of price controls imposed on train operators or by re-nationalising the railways and providing subsidies. This is (as far as I understand it) what the Green Party favours:

Excuse the cut-n-paste but it can be hard to find the relevant bits within the manifesto chapter (here)

Rail

TR230 The Green Party believes that the rail system, including track and operators, needs to be publicly owned, and would seek to bring the service back into public ownership.

TR231 The division of rail and track companies into a competitive rather than a cooperative organisation, and the fragmentation of the rail industry into 100 companies by privatisation, has been disastrous for safety and reliability and the provision of an integrated service. The Green Party would overcome this through public ownership (see TR230), but also by making the rail service more democratically accountable at local and regional levels.

TR232 All rail franchises that exist from rail privatisation would be cancelled, with compensation given only for any money that the franchisee has actually invested in the railway in excess of any profits the franchisee has taken from the railway.

TR233 The Green Party will give high priority to introducing new rail services and increasing the capacity of existing services, by:

a) Adding more tracks and grade separated junctions to existing lines.
b) Reintroducing passengers to lines that at present are used only for freight. (see TR351)
c) Major investment in new rail infrastructure, either along disused lines where applicable, or by building new lines where these would serve perceived demand.
d) Opening additional stations to give all communities reasonable access to the rail service.

TR234 The Green Party would endeavour to make all stations fully accessible to all users. This will include lifts, at grade crossings, ramps, etc., as well as any provision for any user to access carriages without any difficulty. All rail services will have adequate space for those in wheelchairs within areas where passengers are seated. (see TR070)

TR235 All stations will have secure high quality cycle parking provision, under cover wherever possible, regularly reviewed to ensure demand is met. This should include the provision of lockers for overnight parking.

TR236 The Green Party supports the provision of facilities to carry cycles on passenger trains. New rolling stock should be designed so that it can be fitted with such facilities, so that facilities can be increased as demand rises. We recognise that on some services all the capacity is required to carry people, and that limited room at similarly crowded railway stations may restrict the loading and offloading of cycles during peak hours. In such cases our aim will be to improve the railway infrastructure to create the capacity to carry not only all the passengers but cycles as well. To encourage cycle and rail use, the aim will be to carry cycles at no extra cost to users.

TR237 The Green Party would aim to reintroduce staffing of stations as widely as possible, with staff available for the whole periods that services are being run. To allow for this at minor stations where usage is always likely to be low, the idea of community run stations will be explored (e.g. through Community Rail Partnerships), whilst the introduction of Citizens Income will allow for local stations to be staffed on a part time basis for the periods when there are services running. We would support efforts to set up joint retail shop/booking office facilities to extend hours when stations are staffed. The intention will be that stations will once again be places where there is activity and a pride of local ownership, rather than deserted places that many are now.

TR238 Greater priority will be given to replacing existing rolling stock to improve the reliability and safety of trains. The design of this rolling stock will take into account the needs of all potential users, particularly as outlined in TR234 and 236 and also including provision for bulky luggage where possible.

TR239 All high speed and very busy lines and all trains that operate on them should be fitted with some form of automatic train protection to prevent drivers passing signals at danger. Some form of train protection, such as the Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS), should be fitted onto other lines.

TR240 Other rail infrastructure that has suffered chronic under-investment in the past, such as rails, signalling, etc, will be given greater priority, to bring the level of the service back to a safe provision. (see TR204)

TR241 To improve the convenience for users, most services would need to run on a level of frequency that would allow for all reasonable journeys to be made. In general, a minimum of an hourly service would always be expected, with services running from early in the morning to late in the evening. Exceptions would normally be for long distance low demand routes. Special provision would additionally need to be made for seasonal and one-off journeys.

TR242 The Green Party would greatly increase rail investment to expand and improve the network and services.

TR243 To allow for the future extension of rail services and infrastructure, the sale of land by rail authorities would be immediately stopped, pending a review of where future rail provision can be made. Where railway land has recently been disposed of, an early priority will be to investigate how feasible it will be to return this land to rail use.

TR244 The Green Party believes that long distance service provision should not concentrate on high speeds where this will affect local service provision or take up an excessive amount of limited resources.

What do you think of these policies?

Another GP quote regarding the cost of implementing this:

"Rail privatisation has failed. Private rail eats £5 billion in public subsidy, one in five trains fail to arrive in time, and two-thirds of the British public believe it should be part of the public sector. Alastair Darling has claimed renationalisation would cost £20 billion. But in fact, taking the Train Operating Companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire would not cost a penny. South East Trains is currently back in the public sector, after its private owners Connex performed poorly. The companies which own the trains could be bought from the private sector later. This Government's fixation with privatisation has led to poor services, high prices, and massive subsidies. It is time that Britain's railways be run for passengers not for profit." Alan Francis (Green Party transport spokesperson)
link

 

[butterfly child]

I'd still go for the coach, they don't take that much longer.

And if you really insist, you can coach it to Bristol THEN get the train to Cardiff.

 

[TeeJay]

Just to add: The bits about raising the costs of motoring to reflect its impact can be seen here: http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/mfss/transprt.html

...under the heading "Charges and Taxes", policy numbers TR060 to TR070

 

[Roadkill]

FWIW I think the Green Party's transport policies make a lot of sense, though they're a bit too determinedly anti-car for my liking.

 

[aqua]

roadie - you never cease to amaze me just how much of a train anarak you actually are

 

[cybertect]

According to the AA route planner driving from Brixton to Cardiff would be 153.9 miles and take 2hr 56min. Depending on the engine size and type this could cost about £20 in petrol (ie £40 return) although if you factored in the overall cost of owning and running a car at 40p/mile it would then be £120 return (as well as any parking costs and tolls).

Without wishing to appear like an unreconstructed petrol head I don't like to see wooly thinking going unchallenged.

Presumably you're using the 40p per mile figure that's the Inland Revenue's claim allowance when submitting your tax return. However, this includes the cost of your fuel. In which case, you're counting the £40 on fuel twice. Correct that error and the cost of the journey is reduced to £80.

However, if one were to use the figures from the AA Cost of Motoring Report 2005, with an annual mileage of 10,000 miles and a car costing between £10,000 and £20,000 when new, the total standing and running cost per mile (including depreciation, servicing, parking, tolls, etc. and fuel at £1.00 per litre) is 45.6p.

At that rate, the 307.8 mile return journey will cost £140.36.

With a small petrol car that costs below £10,000, at 36.48p per mile -> £112.29. N.B. The running cost component of that is 17.24p per mile.

Now that's not far off your figures, I'll agree, but arrived at on a much more sound basis.

For comparison, if one were to hire a small petrol car for two days (I've just got an online price) that would cost £77.97, with all fixed overheads included. With fuel at £31.06 (10.09p per mile as per AA figures allowing 98.1p per litre) the total cost of the journey is £109.03.

What this does highlight is that, if there is more than one person travelling, the marginal cost of motoring is relatively low once one has paid the fixed overheads of owning a vehicle such as depreciation, insurance and Road Tax.

The marginal cost of the journey for someone who already has a small car would be £53.06 (17.24p x 307.8 miles).

In contrast, the rail fare of £135 is entirely marginal cost. Choosing to travel by rail for this journey when one already owns a small car would present an opportunity cost of £81.94! Even in comparison with hiring a vehicle from a company that is spreading the fixed costs elsewhere it is less advantageous, but nearly £26.

I'll happily concede that I've ignored the Ed's point about the wider costs of using a car, though I might contend that they're perhaps not as great as he assumes when discouraging the use of cars for these reasons is one of the primary motives for the current levels of Fuel Duty and other charges by government.


Counterpoint

In situations where you are the only person making a journey, the train is a much more attractive option. £53.00 for the return fare, according to nationalrail.co.uk, which is apparently cheaper than using a car, albeit by only six pence.

The implications if we are to encourage people to use other modes of transport seem fairly clear if looked at in terms of economics.

- reduce fixed costs of motoring - e.g. scrap Road Tax
- increase marginal costs of motoring - e.g. higher Fuel Duty (which is the only approach already being taken by government)
- discounts for groups of people travelling by public transport

The Obvious Conclusion (TM): Single people without families will be more likely to use trains.

 

[cybertect]

Besides, they're above reproach IMO: they look good, they sound great, they're very quiet and comfortable inside and you can usually get a seat. Far better than a Virgin Voyager or one of FGW's stupid 'Adelante' things.

I can't argue with that - I'm also a fan of the 125

 

[Roadkill]

roadie - you never cease to amaze me just how much of a train anarak you actually are

You ain't heard the half of it socks!

I can discourse learnedly on these things ( ^ ) for a start.

 

[fredfelt]

The implications if we are to encourage people to use other modes of transport seem fairly clear if looked at in terms of economics.

- reduce fixed costs of motoring - e.g. scrap Road Tax
- increase marginal costs of motoring - e.g. higher Fuel Duty (which is the only approach already being taken by government)
- discounts for groups of people travelling by public transport

The Obvious Conclusion (TM): Single people without families will be more likely to use trains.

I liked an idea raised in letter to the Times. To encourage people to use public transport give a part refund to VED in public transport 'tokens'!

nice

 

[TeeJay]

Without wishing to appear like an unreconstructed petrol head I don't like to see wooly thinking going unchallenged.

Presumably you're using the 40p per mile figure that's the Inland Revenue's claim allowance when submitting your tax return. However, this includes the cost of your fuel. In which case, you're counting the £40 on fuel twice. Correct that error and the cost of the journey is reduced to £80.

Wooley thinking?

153.9 miles x 40p/mile = £61.56

return journey = £123.12

How about you learn to add up before spouting off about my "wooley thinking"?

x 153.9

 

[cybertect]

Um.

 

[Zappomatic]

National Express takes about 3 hours, and on the times I selected comes to a grand total of £30.

 

[HackneyE9]

I saw that transport egghead and top bloke Christian Wolmar was wondering why the privatised intercity TOCs, like GNER which do Edinburgh/London, don't complain to the EU about the unfair subsidy aviation gets on comparable domestic shorthaul flights eg Edinburgh/London by paying NO FUEL DUTY WHATSOEVER.

Food for thought?

 

[Roadkill]

I saw that transport egghead and top bloke Christian Wolmar was wondering why the privatised intercity TOCs, like GNER which do Edinburgh/London, don't complain to the EU about the unfair subsidy aviation gets on comparable domestic shorthaul flights eg Edinburgh/London by paying NO FUEL DUTY WHATSOEVER.

Food for thought?

Fair point IMO.

There's no good reason why the airlines should carry on getting what amounts to a big fat subsidy.

Wolmar's a good bloke.

 

[JenkinsEars]

It cost me about £56 for a return from Cardiff to "Great" Yarmouth, a journey which I've done a few times over the last year or so before moving back home.

That's with a young person's railcard though, which I just about qualified for.

 

[Sunray]

Looking at 100 quid for a car rental all in.

If you already owned a car, that would be about 30 quid in fuel. I've no idea how they can say that they are trying to promote alternative travel.

I think the problem you have is they are running at near 100% capacity on some routes. So the price is more determined by supply/demand rather than anything to do with any policy. Need those double decker style carrages they have in Europe.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Just been down to Cornwall to pick up my 2 kids with First Great Western.

They have "simplified" the price structure due to complaints about the complexity of the ticket price system.

Result....there are no more apex return tickets or super savers, merely standard open returns of £200+ or saver return tickets at £70+ each.

Or you can go to a list of single tickets with, hmmm, about 15 options depending on what train you want to go on, and most of them unavailable anyway - much simpler?!?!

Total cost £103 for me to go down there and for the 3 of us to travel back. As is noted above, I could have hired a car as cheaply and not had to arrange transport at Cornish end, undertake 2 trips across London on LT, nor experience the hell that is a summer holiday train, packed with screaming kids, tutting pensioners, Beautiful Days refugees, oh what a laugh we had....

 

[editor]

Oh well, the one 'good' thing is that because the train was delayed over an hour on the journey back we can claim at least 50% of the fare back.

 

[zog]

Oh well, the one 'good' thing is that because the train was delayed over an hour on the journey back we can claim at least 50% of the fare back.

There's a shock. Great Western and Arriva are robbin usless bastards, the amount of time over the last few years I have wasted hanging around waiting for there trains I could have had a couple of days holiday.

Arriva is worse going Cardiff - Manchester. 4 hours on a gloryfied bus on tracks when the fecker shows up at all - they have a habit of cancelling them without warning.

I'm sorely tempted to start flying, cheeper but would probably take a comparative amount of time with all these shampoo bombs going off.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Oh well, the one 'good' thing is that because the train was delayed over an hour on the journey back we can claim at least 50% of the fare back.

If i'd have known that, I'd have got one of my 2 to pull the emergency cord to hold us up, the fine would probably have been less than half the fare...