Riding scooter when CBT has expired

[Cloud]

If you're not committed enough to do a full test, you just don't need more than 50cc. End of. They're trying to reduce road deaths, not add to your convenience.

Have a look at the road death statistics, it's not 125cc riders getting killed.

A 50cc bike is too slow to be safe, a 125 cc bike is perfect for city riding.

The current system actually encourages people into riding bigger, faster and less economical bikes.

 

[ymu]

Have a look at the road death statistics, it's not 125cc riders getting killed.

A 50cc bike is too slow to be safe, a 125 cc bike is perfect for city riding.

The current system actually encourages people into riding bigger, faster and less economical bikes.

Really? I used to deliver pizza on a 50cc and it was fine. Yes, we fought over who got the 90cc and the deliveries with the longer faster roads to take it on, but not because the 50s weren't adequate. Long journeys on fast roads really aren't for drivers who've never had to pass more than a basic competency test.

It's pretty rare in a town driving situation that you need much acceleration to get away - stuff isn't moving that fast to start with, and small bikes beat most vehicles hands down for acceleration from a slow/standing start. You should always find it easy to get a good safe distance between you and the car behind at the lights, however small the engine.

I'll grant you up to 75cc though, because you can't take a full test on a 50cc. The test is getting tougher in 2008 to comply with EU regs. If it's too tough now, maybe try and pass before then?

 

[muckypup]

The need to repeat the CBT is the minimum the DVLA can do to make sure you're keeping yourself safe.

That should then apply to all bikers, not just 'learners'. It is a bit silly the whole L plate, repeat the CBT every two years fiasco for your average commuter who will never go beyond a 125cc. However, most things to do with the law appear to contain an air of inexplicable stupidity. Oh well.

Break the law. its the only logical thing to do.

Disclaimer: under no circumstances do I advocate breaking the law, the only thing a good citizen should be breaking is wind.

 

[ymu]

The current system actually encourages people into riding bigger, faster and less economical bikes.

Forgot to ask - can you explain this?

Do you mean the appalling expense of £1/week to be allowed to drive with permanent L-plates on a machine capable of motorway speeds - including the right to drive on dual carriage ways, many of which might as well be motorways?

How does this encourage people to spend hundreds on training in a short space of time in order to get their full licence - so they can invest in a big fuck off motorbike when they'd otherwise be happy with a 125cc?

Or am I missing your point?

 

[muckypup]

I used to deliver pizza on a 50cc and it was fine.

being young, broke & delivering pizzas on a shitty 50cc may be fine for you but some people expect just that little bit more from life.

It's pretty rare in a town driving situation that you need much acceleration to get away - stuff isn't moving that fast to start with

I'd say 90% plus of the motorcycling community would strongly disagree, consensus appears to suggest that a faster bike is safer as it allows one to accelerate out of trouble. Besides have you tried riding in London traffic on a 50cc?

 

[ymu]

That should then apply to all bikers, not just 'learners'. It is a bit silly the whole L plate, repeat the CBT every two years fiasco for your average commuter who will never go beyond a 125cc. However, most things to do with the law appear to contain an air of inexplicable stupidity. Oh well.

Break the law. its the only logical thing to do.

Disclaimer: under no circumstances do I advocate breaking the law, the only thing a good citizen should be breaking is wind.

The full bike test is very very different from a CBT - I don't think you could get through the bike test and ever ever forget the things that keep you safe. Unlike car instructors, bike instructors don't just tell you to check over both shoulders if the mirrors say all clear - they'll even explain exactly what it is you're looking for no matter how bleedin' obvious (not always that obvious, as it happens). Safety is 100% paramount in both training and testing - it gets drummed into you so you will not forget it.

Even then, any biker who hasn't ridden for a while should probably get a refresher course. No chance I'd get on anything other than a moped without that - I haven't ridden for about 5 years. If they find a practical way to make this law, they should IMO.

I didn't even have to do a CBT to go out with L-plates, and it terrifies me how little I understood about handling a bike on the road back then. The CBT is very basic, but it's not just "do you know how to make it stop and start?". You have to show you know the basic sequence of actions for simple manoeuvres, checking over the correct shoulder(s) at the correct times, maintaining a safe position on the road, perform manoeuvres at slow speeds, etc. And it's not even a test - it's a training course with a certificate to show you completed satisfactorily.



Apologies for going on and on and on - but really, they teach you to be properly safety conscious if you do a full bike test. I once idiotically decided to ride instead of cycle the half mile through town to work on a hot summer day in my shorts and trainers and got hooted at angrily by 3 separate proper grown-up bikers who only had my best interests at heart. It seems fun, it can be deadly - do everything you can to keep yourself safe; DSA can only enforce the minimum.

 

[ymu]

being young, broke & delivering pizzas on a shitty 50cc may be fine for you but some people expect just that little bit more from life.



I'd say 90% plus of the motorcycling community would strongly disagree, consensus appears to suggest that a faster bike is safer as it allows one to accelerate out of trouble. Besides have you tried riding in London traffic on a 50cc?

I was 27 when I had my pizza job; I'd had a car licence for 10 years and owned a 125cc motorcycle which was my primary form of transport. I did 200 mile round trips on it pretty much every week. The 50cc moped was a lot better around town.

It's definitely safer to have more power on a fast road - to get you out of trouble, and make joining fast roads safer. In town, a small bike is so light nothing much else is gonna touch it for acceleration up to 30mph.

I'm not making this up. I delivered pizza around (and sometimes to) Heathrow - and I fucking loved leaving the soooooooped up cars standing after their egomaniac drivers had been revving their engines up like dickheads after I pulled up alongside them at the lights. Beaten by a moped when they're showing off in front of their mates. Oh, the shame.

 

[ymu]

Have a look at the road death statistics, it's not 125cc riders getting killed.

And I missed this too ...

It's misleading to focus on road deaths when talking about vehicles used primarily on slower roads.

The relevant stats are for accidents causing serious injury or death. Comparative statistics relative to bigger bikes need to exclude motorways and interurban dual carriageways to be meaningful. Find that, and you might have a point to make - but I seriously doubt you can find figures to back up the argument.

/statto

 

[Cloud]

As I understand it, the majority of motorcycle accident blackspots are on Country B roads. I live on the edge of the peak district and the bike crash stats are posted on nearly every section of bends. As you head out of town the first set of around 10 bends has had 24 riders killed or seriously injured this year alone, my friend being one of them.

Let's not mess around here, people are buying large sportsbikes to race around on public roads. You only have to head out to Matlock Bath on a sunday for proof of this. Of course this does not apply to EVERYONE on a powerfull motorcycle but the greater majority are all there kitted out in moto GP suits and riding in a manner that should be restricted to a race track.

Now bear in mind that some of these riders have gone from absolutely no experience on a bike to a full license in 5 days. There seems absolutely no point in NOT going straight for a DAS course because they refund your CBT cost. The current system does nothing to encourage anyone apart from a teenager to ride a smaller bike for a while and totally descriminates against the commuter looking for cheap transport. Those intending to ride the most dangerous machines can fork out £600-£900 and never get another look in yet those of us who wish to stay on smaller machines are constantly scrutinised and pushed towards repeating a useless test every two years.

All this is doing is putting money in the government and training schools pocket. I agree with a one off CBT but car drivers should have unlimited 125cc entitlement thereafter.

If you think a driving test saves lives then have a look at what young car drivers are doing. Just how many youths pass their tests and a week later wrap their car round a tree?

You can't change this mentality in those people but you can make it easier and more convenient to ride a small machine which the current system does not, Infact it pushes people into doing quite the opposite as manufacturers import less and less small machines into this country and it's becoming cheaper to buy a low milage 600cc Ducati than a 125 scooter.

 

[chymaera]

As I understand it, the majority of motorcycle accident blackspots are on Country B roads. I live on the edge of the peak district and the bike crash stats are posted on nearly every section of bends. As you head out of town the first set of around 10 bends has had 24 riders killed or seriously injured this year alone, my friend being one of them.

Nationally the sitution is somewhat more complex than that:-
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme5/indepthstudyofmotorcycleacci4784

 

[ymu]

Yeah - loads of bikers head out Matlock way when they fancy a burn. Never my cup of tea, but that road is famous.

I never had to take a CBT at all because I already had a full driving licence, which was an exemption when the CBT was introduced in 1990. If you passed your driving test before 2001 and want to ride a 50cc moped, the CBT does not expire. If you pass your car test whilst your CBT is still valid, then you will not need to repeat it - it becomes a permanent L-plate entitlement for a 50cc.

So you might as well just get an ordinary driving licence if repeating the CBT every couple of years bothers you. Much cheaper than the bike test, and easier, and more useful too.


http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_4022430

 

[pembrokestephen]

no she isn't. it expires in november

Perhaps it is November in chymaera's reality?

 

[pembrokestephen]

My scooter is a 100CC. I don't have it for fun, I have it as my sole use of transport. I needed some form of transport when I started my job, and couldn't afford a car (plus lessons, plus test etc).

The reason I'm not taking the full test is because of the expense. The drawbacks of not taking the full test mean I have to keep L plates on, am not allowed passengers, and can't go on motorways (which I wouldn't anyway), and presumably more expensive insurance.

As the law stands, I don't need to take a full test, and won't do so. I think I've done pretty well to not even fall off or have any accidents in 2 years, considering the number of very dangerous car drivers out there who seem hellbent on killing me.

Probably not helpful at this point, but you mention "presumably more expensive insurance".

I don't know how expensive a bike test is, but it would be interesting to see how much cheaper your insurance would become, because I have a sneaky feeling that taking the test would probably pay for itself quite quickly if you're having to shell out £100 every two years for CBT, and pay enhanced insurance premiums, too...

 

[Cloud]

The insurance costs barely differ on my machine (125 cc) regardless of whether you have a full licence or not. The insurers seem more interested in the value of the bike and likelyhood of theft.

I don't mean to argue around the bush but you can see my point here. I have no intention of using a motorway nor carrying a passenger so passing my test would do nothing but relieve me of £600 upwards plus when the time comes to change machines I'm much more likely to find a bargain in the larger bike market.

I'm seriously considering just selling my commuter and getting another car since the test is soon to become even more expensive and that money might as well be spent buying a vehicle which does not require ongoing training costs. It all seems rather ridiculous that someone should be discouraged from driving something that does 100+ mpg and causes less congestion.

The 50cc moped is not an option imo as they are not capable of safe riding in any situation other than a traffic jam. A 125 is the perfect solution to a commuters needs yet is now regarded as just a stepping stone to a larger bike.

It's a real pity that motorcycling is becoming regarded as a sport or hobby rather than a viable means of cheap transportation.

 

[detective-boy]

Of course this does not apply to EVERYONE on a powerfull motorcycle but the greater majority are all there kitted out in moto GP suits and riding in a manner that should be restricted to a race track.

You got a stat to back up your assertion that the "greater majority" of bikers with big bikes are riding about like twats? Because I suspect it would actually turn out to be a small (albeit very visible) minority.

 

[chymaera]

You got a stat to back up your assertion that the "greater majority" of bikers with big bikes are riding about like twats? Because I suspect it would actually turn out to be a small (albeit very visible) minority.

Power Rangers who ride like total idiots are the minority. (They are very noticeable by their absence from normal biker social activities, and from membership of biker pressure groups.)

 

[Cloud]

erm so people ride a hayabusa for it's overtaking prowess? I think not!

Can I also question the born again biker crap that seems to be brought up again and again? These guys have never ridden a motorcycle in their lives. There were three guys on my CBT all in their late 40's early 50's, seemed like pretty well off professionals and none of them had ever had a bike before. One of them stated he had a brand new R1 in the garage, he was on the 5 day DAS course.

 

[chymaera]

erm so people ride a hayabusa for it's overtaking prowess? I think not!

Can I also question the born again biker crap that seems to be brought up again and again?

Born Agains are a particular catagory of bike who have a proven track record of a high rate of accidents and death. I would agree with your second point though there are also a number of older non bikers who would like a Ferrari but can't afford one. A CBT, a direct access test and £10000-£12000 gets them a set of matching leathers and associated kit and a motorcycle capable with little modification of 200mph. They just are not capable of handling it in many cases. I have over 40 years of driving experience but I would not expect to drive a formula one racing car without some serious special training, which is what a top end sports bike is the equivalent of.

 

[detective-boy]

One of them stated he had a brand new R1 in the garage, he was on the 5 day DAS course.

Come on, now! Don't dismiss the concept out of hand ...

My first R1 was six months old, with less than 1000 miles on the clock ... sold by someone who had scared the fuck out of himself on it having never ridden anything else previously. And it was a damn sight cheaper than a new one ...

 

[ymu]

Come on, now! Don't dismiss the concept out of hand ...

My first R1 was six months old, with less than 1000 miles on the clock ... sold by someone who had scared the fuck out of himself on it having never ridden anything else previously. And it was a damn sight cheaper than a new one ...

Bless!

 

[Sunray]

Because that is the law that why. I had to pass my test. A decent 125 can hit 70mph no problem. If you can afford to run a 125 you can afford to pass the test like everybody else. 2 years to save up for it?

 

[miss direct]

Because that is the law that why. I had to pass my test. A decent 125 can hit 70mph no problem. If you can afford to run a 125 you can afford to pass the test like everybody else. 2 years to save up for it?

It's not the law to pass a test. It's the law to either pass a test or retake the CBT. And I don't think you know what I can and can't afford! Running costs of my scooter are less than a fiver a week.

 

[ymu]

It's not the law to pass a test. It's the law to either pass a test or retake the CBT. And I don't think you know what I can and can't afford! Running costs of my scooter are less than a fiver a week.

The CBT is a very basic training course and it costs less than £1/week to keep it up to date if you intend never to take a proper test. It is part of the cost of running a scooter on L plates; you must have taken this into account before you decided to get one?

There is a good reason DSA do not want people running around on permanent L-plates - they put themselves and everyone else at greater risk. For practical reasons, they don't ban people from ever riding again if they don't pass their full test within 2 years of the CBT. This is more than reasonable. If you can't demonstrate that you can handle the vehicle safely and know the basics about riding on the road and handling junctions, you shouldn't be on the road.

There are loads of young riders who are both clueless and dangerous. Regardless of your own ability/experience, if you choose to fit the same rider profile as them, you have to follow the same rules.

 

[Cloud]

There is a good reason DSA do not want people running around on permanent L-plates - they put themselves and everyone else at greater risk.

And your proof of that is?

 

[ymu]

And your proof of that is?

I've already linked you to several of their pages, and Chymaera linked you to a report on biker accidents and injuries (if you couldn't be arsed to read it, they found two higher risk groups - experienced riders on powerful machines, and young riders on small machines - it's summarised pretty clearly on the first page ...).

By all means come back with new arguments and new evidence, but this is getting very circular. It's not about what is most convenient for you personally, got it?

 

[miss direct]

What does being young have to do with anything?
I do not put anyone at risk! I am a very careful rider.

I can demonstrate my skills, it is just annoying and expensive to have to pay £100 odd to do so.

I'm not going to break the law or ride without being legal to do so, I merely posed the question about what would happen if I did so.

"Because it's the law" and "because I had to do so" are just lame answers in my opinion!

If I was older, I wouldn't have even needed to have done a CBT! Aren't these riders also theoretically putting people at risk?

 

[ymu]

What does being young have to do with anything?
I do not put anyone at risk! I am a very careful rider.

I can demonstrate my skills, it is just annoying and expensive to have to pay £100 odd to do so.

I'm not going to break the law or ride without being legal to do so, I merely posed the question about what would happen if I did so.

"Because it's the law" and "because I had to do so" are just lame answers in my opinion!

If I was older, I wouldn't have even needed to have done a CBT! Aren't these riders also theoretically putting people at risk?

It's this pesky thing called other people.

I know several people who believe they are safe to drive well over the limit because they drive better drunk than most people sober. Even if they are absolutely correct, just how are we going to decide who needs to obey the law and who doesn't?

You could try writing to DSA and explaining your position, but I'm pretty sure they haven't come up with a scheme to let really really safe riders self-certify as such. It's why they ask for proof ...

 

[axomoxia]

You would have to do a CBT anyway, irrespective of age..... unless you passed you test (they don't take away old pass entitlements - hence i can drive a 7.5 tonne truck and a collection of other esoteric road going vehicles....).

You could always do your test..... (although if you are riding a scooter or sub 125cc bike it would limit you to a ride 125 without l-plates license - but hey, you can ride on motorways and take pillions!).

Andy

 

[Cloud]

I've already linked you to several of their pages, and Chymaera linked you to a report on biker accidents and injuries (if you couldn't be arsed to read it, they found two higher risk groups - experienced riders on powerful machines, and young riders on small machines - it's summarised pretty clearly on the first page ...).

By all means come back with new arguments and new evidence, but this is getting very circular. It's not about what is most convenient for you personally, got it?

I did read both of them and they are total bollocks. Random accidents happen. It's you cockends on sportsbikes doing the damage and I'm paying the price..

 

[Roadkill]

DP