Rich Kid Poor Kid...

[N_igma]

......................... you're kidding, right?

Of course it's because she's poor, ffs! You saw where she lived, you saw the responsibilities she had to deal with, you saw that there was nobody to help her. What 'underlying' reason ties all of the shit she has had to deal with together.... could it be.... her class....?

How the hell can you watch a program that blatantly states it is dealing with the issue of rich v. poor and come away wondering how it is that 'poor girl' hasn't got as many qualifications as 'rich girl'?

Oh do fuck off I grew up in a household very very similar to hers, got 10 GCSE's, 3 A-Levels and am studying for a degree. It's not all about wealth, there are other considerations to take into account.

 

[Laney]

My point would be that your environment is largely determined by your wealth, something I thought was glaringly obvious.

 

[N_igma]

My point would be that your environment is largely determined by your wealth, something I thought was glaringly obvious.

Well I know that but to simply blame the fact that you have no qualifications on the fact that you're poor is no excuse. Being poor doesn't mean you're not going to get qualifications, the conditions that surround you as a result of being poor may hinder that yes but it's still not really an excuse. Again, I don't know how the system works in England but apparently the schools are dodgy, lack resources and many teachers don't give a shit so maybe it's harder for people like Natalie than it was for me. I dunno.

 

[tbaldwin]

Well I know that but to simply blame the fact that you have no qualifications on the fact that you're poor is no excuse. Being poor doesn't mean you're not going to get qualifications, the conditions that surround you as a result of being poor may hinder that yes but it's still not really an excuse. Again, I don't know how the system works in England but apparently the schools are dodgy, lack resources and many teachers don't give a shit so maybe it's harder for people like Natalie than it was for me. I dunno.

The English class system is vicious and racist. People like Natalie are often written off at the earliest possible opportunity.
The education system in england is preety well fucked for 50% of young people.

 

[Laney]

Well I know that but to simply blame the fact that you have no qualifications on the fact that you're poor is no excuse. Being poor doesn't mean you're not going to get qualifications, the conditions that surround you as a result of being poor may hinder that yes but it's still not really an excuse. Again, I don't know how the system works in England but apparently the schools are dodgy, lack resources and many teachers don't give a shit so maybe it's harder for people like Natalie than it was for me. I dunno.

She wasn't blaming her lack of qualifications on her poverty, because she wasn't making excuses. She used it by way of explanation.

Obviously you think that people lacking your impressive list of qualifications need to make exuses for their lack of achievement...

And yes we have some awful schools.

 

[salem]

Many people in England do very well academically despite being poor. Libraries and museums are free after all. I think the reasons they were poor were the same reasons that they were generally not doing very well but I don't think they were living that way as a direct result of being poor. Many people with the same income manage to keep on top of things.

 

[salem]

Don't what her school was like, but there are some with general cultures of not expecting achievement, sadly.

But unfortunately this show only served to reinforce those expectations.

 

[N_igma]

She wasn't blaming her lack of qualifications on her poverty, because she wasn't making excuses. She used it by way of explanation.

No, she said she has no qualifications because of a "poor persons education" which I've said I didn't agree with. I've made my point and that's that, I thought she was a charming, intelligent and caring girl myself but hey what ya gonna do?

Obviously you think that people lacking your impressive list of qualifications need to make exuses for their lack of achievement...

Yes that's exactly what I think now back in your box.

 

[Laney]

No, many people in England do very well academically despite being poor. Libraries and museums are free after all. I think the reasons they were poor were the same reasons that they were generally not doing very well but I don't think they were living that way as a direct result of being poor. Many people with the same income manage to keep on top of things.

No, not 'many' - a handful of precious lucky breaks that unfortunately tend to go on and condemn everyone they grew up around in order to distance themselves from a past they'd rather forget... and reinforce this belief that it's perfectly reasonable to expect children raised in poverty to succeed in our crappy education system.

When the vast majority of a class fail and a few succeed, why do people think we should be expecting them all to succeed? Surely logic suggests that we should be expecting them all to fail, as this is the general outcome their socioeconomic position produces.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, she said she has no qualifications because of a "poor persons education" which I've said I didn't agree with.

Strange how kids from posh schools are so much more likely to go to uni than anyone else.......Perhaps there just born better than the rest of us?

Seriously though the education system is there to syphon off a few creeps ( er i mean bright people) from ordinary backgrounds to join with their new chums from the upper classes.....
At uni they can learn from the real posh kids how to look down on the uneducated masses.......

 

[tbaldwin]

Strange how kids from posh schools are so much more likely to go to uni than anyone else.......Perhaps there just born better than the rest of us?

Seriously though the education system is there to syphon off a few creeps ( er i mean bright people) from ordinary backgrounds to join with their new chums from the upper classes.....
At uni they can learn from the real posh kids how to look down on the uneducated masses.......

Oh and just to add to think that the posh girl will go and get a heavily subsidised Higher education and talks as though its poor people who are the scroungers.......aaaagggghhhh
And then you get people on urban who think there left wing who think more money should go to higher education....aaaaaaagggggghhhhhh........you scummmm

 

[N_igma]

Strange how kids from posh schools are so much more likely to go to uni than anyone else.......Perhaps there just born better than the rest of us?

No, of course class plays a part but it's not the sole part. I think having a determined and dedicated set of parents or sole parent plays a key role, as well as just being smart I guess.

At uni they can learn from the real posh kids how to look down on the uneducated masses.......

Have you even been to uni? I have never encountered one instance of this sort of thing in my 4 years of university.

 

[kalidarkone]

Dont forget the poor mum had long term depression and Natalie was parenting her brother and managing the budget- and this circumstance clearly added to their situation. I got the impression that her mum did not have much interaction with people other then Natalie and her mate. They clearly were not aware of other benefits or charity grants they could of been entitled to so that poor boy did not have to sleep on the floor.

The rich kids attitude did change a bit on meeting Natalie- and she said she was horrified by her own attitude before she met Natalie- she has some hope

 

[_angel_]

Strange how kids from posh schools are so much more likely to go to uni than anyone else.......Perhaps there just born better than the rest of us?

Seriously though the education system is there to syphon off a few creeps ( er i mean bright people) from ordinary backgrounds to join with their new chums from the upper classes.....
At uni they can learn from the real posh kids how to look down on the uneducated masses.......

OK so you prefer an education system that deters the poor by being made to pay back fees?

I would not have gone and got into £10,000's of debt but we had grants when I went to college.

There weren't any 'upper classes' at the slightly glorified teacher training college I went to.

 

[monkeyhead]

the comment about a 'poor persons education' to me seemed like a generalisation made to compare her situation with the 'posh' girls, she fully understands societys view of how poor people achieve (or don't) and this was reflected in the comment. Seemed to me it was a comment on how people see poor peoples acheivements than an excuse for her own lack of qualifications.

didint sound like an excuse just a statement of fact, even if it was a generalisation, the whole situation was about comparisons after all

 

[tbaldwin]

OK so you prefer an education system that deters the poor by being made to pay back fees?

I would not have gone and got into £10,000's of debt but we had grants when I went to college.

There weren't any 'upper classes' at the slightly glorified teacher training college I went to.

1 No i prefer an education system that does not give huge handouts to the already better off.
I think anybody who supports the present higher education system in the uk needs to recognise that it is a system designed to strenghten the class system. A bit like assisted school places for posh schools.

2 And?

3 You sure?

 

[tbaldwin]

No, of course class plays a part but it's not the sole part. I think having a determined and dedicated set of parents or sole parent plays a key role, as well as just being smart I guess.



Have you even been to uni? I have never encountered one instance of this sort of thing in my 4 years of university.

1 Oh dear.

2 Have you seen the ad for tesco insurance....its more subtle than that....not everyone understands it but its there all the same......Have you seen how many employers who claim to be equal opportunities employers ask for degrees? Do you not think that is part of age and class discrimination?

 

[_angel_]

1 No i prefer an education system that does not give huge handouts to the already better off.
I think anybody who supports the present higher education system in the uk needs to recognise that it is a system designed to strenghten the class system. A bit like assisted school places for posh schools.

2 And?

3 You sure?

You've got a massive chip on your shoulder about this one. Yes, there is a class divide between those that can go to university and making students pay for it is only going to make it worse!

Yes, I'm pretty sure the two bit college I went to was mainly lower middle class. I am capable of making the distinction between that and upper class I think.

Blairs weird attempt to get half of the population into university had a strange way of going about it by making them pay ie deterring poorer students.

I somehow doubt my parents would have encouraged me to go and get into £1000's of debts to go to college and no, they could not and did not have the money to pay for me.

 

[tbaldwin]

You've got a massive chip on your shoulder about this one. .

Too fucking right i have. I'm a socialist. That means i am against the class system in this country.
I dont really trust anyone who doesnt have a chip on their shoulder about the education system in this country.
Anybody who describes themselves as a Socialist or Internationalist who seriously goes on about more money for higher education, should consider 4 things.

1 Kids from private schools end up paying about £20,000 to schools like eton and then only about £3,000 a year to go University, WHY?

2 Less than 2% of the worlds population has a higher education.

3 The people most likely to benefit from a higher education in the UK come from the richer and richest families.

4 The money would be better spent on the education of everybody between 5 and 16.

 

[_angel_]

Too fucking right i have. I'm a socialist. That means i am against the class system in this country.
I dont really trust anyone who doesnt have a chip on their shoulder about the education system in this country.
Anybody who describes themselves as a Socialist or Internationalist who seriously goes on about more money for higher education, should consider 4 things.

1 Kids from private schools end up paying about £20,000 to schools like eton and then only about £3,000 a year to go University, WHY?

2 Less than 2% of the worlds population has a higher education.

3 The people most likely to benefit from a higher education in the UK come from the richer and richest families.

4 The money would be better spent on the education of everybody between 5 and 16.

Withdraw support for students to study at university and you will end up with a 100% upper middle/ upper class student population.

Yes, educate people better between 5-16 the two things do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Stop subsidising university education and you may as well hand it ALL to the very rich, rather than just mainly the rich.

I would like to see a system where elite universities are forced to take the relevent % of state school pupils (and not just from*good* state schools either)

Where are you going to get doctors, nurses, teachers... anybody who needs educating beyond 16/18 from if we don't have s subsidy?

I think education should be free for all, not dependent on ability to pay.

Are you really arguing for less education for British children from less rich backgrounds because the poorer countries in the world don't have it??

 

[DotCommunist]

I avoided this because it's the sort of program that makes my trigger finger itch

 

[tbaldwin]

I think education should be free for all, not dependent on ability to pay.

QUOTE]

Sorry but that really is just Liberal nonsense.
What all education for everybody.......We are so far from that now that it just sounds like total bullshit.

And of course i am not against subsidising education....But no way do i want to subsidise the education of x public school students. They should pay at least £20k if they want a place in a university and then this money could be used to subsidise the education of people in the state school system.

 

[N_igma]

1 Oh dear.

Why oh dear? Look at the show, the young girl had to phone around schools looking for a place for her brother. I don't care what anyone says but that's the job of the parent. I know the parent has some problems so Natalie was just taking care of the household for her which I think means she couldn't focus on her education which is what I mean when I say having a stable household and family is essential to a good education, it's more relevant imo than class but that's my opinion.

2 Have you seen the ad for tesco insurance....its more subtle than that....not everyone understands it but its there all the same......

Are you on crack? What the hell has tesco insurance ad got to do with anything? "Not everyone understands it but its there all the same" Couldn't be more clear cut than that mister.

Have you seen how many employers who claim to be equal opportunities employers ask for degrees? Do you not think that is part of age and class discrimination?

Because degrees are essential for many jobs, you can't seriously expect someone to walk into a mechanical engineering job with a GCSE in Home Economics can you?

All I'm saying is that class is a detterrent for many getting into third level education but it's not something that you should use as an excuse for not getting into third level education. I don't see the problem with that.

 

[_angel_]

I think education should be free for all, not dependent on ability to pay.

QUOTE]

Sorry but that really is just Liberal nonsense.
What all education for everybody.......We are so far from that now that it just sounds like total bullshit.

And of course i am not against subsidising education....But no way do i want to subsidise the education of x public school students. They should pay at least £20k if they want a place in a university and then this money could be used to subsidise the education of people in the state school system.

You favour a system whereby only those that can pay about £20k a year should have a higher education?

Tbh I'd have more of a beef at the charitable status of public schools than get upset about subsiding some elite kids places at uni (and remember you're also subsidising a lot of of less rich people as well as educating the next generation of doctors/ nurses/ other health workers who will treat you in the nhs etc)


By the way I don't treat 'liberal' as an insult unlike some others.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm a socialist.

PMSL!

 

[_angel_]

Because degrees are essential for many jobs, you can't seriously expect someone to walk into a mechanical engineering job with a GCSE in Home Economics can you?

.

Exactly. Baldwins system would only favour those able to shell out £100,000's on their university education. In the meantime the nhs would have collapsed and God knows what will have happened to the rest of the economy if only a fraction of the population at the top are allowed access to higher education.

Like it or not degrees are needed for a lot of jobs. I agree some of them don't or shouldn't need them but a lot of them do.

 

[Cloo]

Just watched on 4OD.

I mainly blame the rich girl's mum for her appaling attitude - she'd obviously indoctrinated her kids with the idea that only poor people go to state schools (I love the way for the girl 'state school kids' = 'poor kids') and that council estates were dangerous and you'd get stabbed.

I think the programme showed something often not considered by people when they hear about kids dropping out of school, namely that quite a lot do it for the same reason as Natalie - they have caring responsibilities.

Regarding university - I don't think we need more people at uni for a lot of jobs, but we do need more jobs to give people a chance from a wider variety of backgrounds, degree or no. I do think there should be more schemes like one I heard of at King's London where they give 50 places to kids from areas where students just don't tend to make the grade, but who they assess as having ability, and then give them a foundation year to help them build the skills and expectations that they need to study medicine before they join the course.

 

[tbaldwin]

OK so you prefer an education system that deters the poor by being made to pay back fees?

.

1 No i prefer an education system that improves the chances of poor people. And one that means poorer people have more spent on their education.

I prefer an education system that does less to subsidise the well off and more to subsidise the less well off.

 

[tbaldwin]

You favour a system whereby only those that can pay about £20k a year should have a higher education?

Tbh I'd have more of a beef at the charitable status of public schools than get upset about subsiding some elite kids places at uni (and remember you're also subsidising a lot of of less rich people as well as educating the next generation of doctors/ nurses/ other health workers who will treat you in the nhs etc)


By the way I don't treat 'liberal' as an insult unlike some others.

1 You dont really believe that do you?

2 Yes Charitable status should be removed from posh schools but that doesnt mean that you then have to support subsidising the posh kids who go on to university does it?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Fuck the young posh girl, she's young and immature it's her mother that needs a good slapping (not literally but ya know what I mean).

A question (which btw, I don't have an answer for myself); at what age do we stop seeing someone as not at fault for their views because of this indoctrination, and start seeing them as responsible for their own abhorent views?

I just know from my old high school (which had was quite mixed socially) that unless you were in all the top sets the teachers pretty much gave up on you and you had to pretty much do stuff off your own bat.... and to be frank some of the teachers were snobby and didn't expect as much off the less well off kids.

Don't what her school was like, but there are some with general cultures of not expecting achievement, sadly.

This was like my school too - and having been both in middle and upper sets, the quality of education and encouragement given to you can really differ.

Incidentally, didn't Freakonomics report that the biggest predictor of educational achievement is not necessarily the school you go to, but parental attitudes to education? Although of course parents attitude to education will be influenced by many things that tie in with inequal systems.

I do think there should be more schemes like one I heard of at King's London where they give 50 places to kids from areas where students just don't tend to make the grade, but who they assess as having ability, and then give them a foundation year to help them build the skills and expectations that they need to study medicine before they join the course.

That sounds pretty

In re: to the higher education debate, I don't understand how bumping up fees would in any way encourage working or lower middle class kids into uni. My uncle was the first in my dad's side of the family to get to uni despite coming from a poor background, and there's no way that he would have gone these days, had he been born into the same circumstances 30 years later.

2 Yes Charitable status should be removed from posh schools but that doesnt mean that you then have to support subsidising the posh kids who go on to university does it?

Not all kids at uni are posh, or at least they weren't in my year (very last year before fees were brought in).