Reverse culture shock experiences

[Chairman Meow]

You seem to suggest that the options are either travelling or living a 'normal' consumerist lifestyle. You can tell yourself that if you like

Course I'm not. I'm just pointing out why many people like having their flat screen teles etc. Some of us ( most of us) don't really fancy travelling the world with a baby strapped to their back, and most of us have to work to live. I suppose I could work and earn less and downsize ( more than I have already), but I don't want to - I like my comfy house and sofa ta very much, and don't see anything wrong with that choice.

 

[purves grundy]

Reading this thread makes me think back to when I was in a standard curry house in Scarborough and a couple of young peeps, fresh from their travels in India, came in wearing traditional Indian dress. The bloke was wearing a really long kurta, the lass had a sari on. It was pissing it down and freezing outside and they were soaked through, but they did their best to look at peace with nature. They didn't want anything off the menu, causing a stir and consternation among staff by asking for godknowswhat traditional concoction from south eastern Madras or wherever. Then asking where the staff were from, to which the answers were Bradford, Sheffield, and Dakka.

I did some good earwigging that night.

 

[Trufflepig]

One thing I never get used to in this country though is how untrusting people are of each other, particulalry in London. Like you can't talk to people on the bus without them thinking you're a psychopath. And the other week I stayed with someone in Copenhagen through couchsurfing.com

I've stayed with and hosted a few couchsurfers, my mates think I'm taking a huge risk too. They have all been lovely, I'm sure British people generally are just as nice, but you do have a lot of stranger danger mentality to get past.

 

[Brainaddict]

To be fair, I do think at the moment couchsurfing gets a very nice self-selecting bunch of people - I can imagine if it became too big and famous it might go a bit pearshaped. But more because of people being obviously parasitic than because of psychopaths. We shall see.

Anyway, back to life in Britain: constant drinking annoys me too sometimes, but you've got to look on the positive side - it does help people to get past their fear of strangers

 

[pinkmonkey]

You only notice it if you leave. I always thought it was a bit of a myth until I moved away - things like gaining two hours a day from your commuting time make a hell of a difference. Also if you live somewhere smaller/ quieter, its easier and quicker to get to do stuff, like go to the shops, or drive to the beach etc. When I look back at my life in London, it was fun, but a bit of a battle at times.

It sweeps you away, city life does, like a mudslide. Although I live in Tottenham, I work from home and I live on the marsh, so I feel a bit protected from it. I only go into the West End if I really have to. I met a friend in a city pub last week. I was at the whole thing. I had to remind myself that I didn't used to be so freaked out by it.

When you're caught up in that way of life you don't notice it or how it affects you. I think it's a bit unnatural for us - we've only lived in cities like this for a few generations, yet our species is thousands of years old.

 

[Dr Jon]

Have a look at how a lot of the Indian nouveau-riche are living....

It is disturbing to see Gandhian economics and the principles of independence and self-reliance abandoned in favour of Western-style capitalism.

There is a development boom in progress, which is taking its toll on the environment. A minority are getting obscenely rich and a new generation of yuppies are borrowing and spending as if the good times will last forever. The recent falls on the stock markets have been a harsh lesson and I fear there is greater hardship ahead as recession and limits to growth start to bite.

As for reverse culture shock, I am often surprised at how miserable folk are back home in UK when compared to people in India, for whom life is much less secure and a constant struggle.

 

[Trufflepig]

I am often surprised at how miserable folk are back home in UK when compared to people in India, for whom life is much less secure and a constant struggle.

I wonder if the two are correlated. Perhaps the secret to happiness is not an easy life, but one of small but winnable battles. Not building a great tower but say keeping on top of the laundry.

Traditionally low status jobs that are satisfying, or at least allow one to get in a trance when you do them. That are still practiced more in India. Lower aspirations or more realistic aspirations maybe? Because people never imagine doing anything else.

I wonder if later point is one of the reasons Indian workers seem to use such bad tools. Soft iron manties for digging or brooms without handles leaving women bent at right angles?

Indians are generally more sociable and friendly, they probably don't suffer the same isolation. Hardship does strengthen bonds in a way, a shared experience - like how people show character in adversity. And you tend to talk to your neighbours more when it snows.

TP (Waiting for an accusation of romanticism)

 

[fela fan]

It's only natural to hope for friends to share common ground.

I don't mind that people are getting these things if they really decide that is what they want. It seems to me more, that by default, they are keeping up with the Jones's funded by loans they can ill afford.

The closing time revolutionaries are comparing mortgages and dental plans.

One of those interesting threads that pops up from time to time on urban these days.

I think a lot of people that go off travelling, or who live in another country for a while, come back to england and naturally enough notice a lot of things they never did before. Having had some great experiences, not the least of which is to discover a bit more about oneself and life, it is natural to want some of this good stuff for your friends too.

But they're caught up in the daily life that England is, and i've found that they can only handle a few minutes of my 'tales' before the conversation needs to be changed. For obvious reasons. When on trips back home i simply get on with typical conversations that i always had when living there.

Furthermore, after nine years of living in thailand i went back in 2000 for nearly two years to study. I found it a living nightmare for just about a full year (it did not help at all that summer was cancelled that year). Reverse culture shock was horrible. I'm lucky to still have my mates in england, but to be fair to myself i reserved my complaints to emails back to my mates in bangkok.

Reverse culture shock is just that: shock. And to be honest the only way i could live in england again would be if money were no problem, and i could get away from all forms of media, and i'd need to be in the sticks somewhere. To me though, it will always be that the best 5% of life is to be had in england - eg a good blue sky in the summer in a beer garden in the sticks with mates, a great live gig, a football match, cricket; while the remainder of the more normal life is much much better for me in thailand. I prefer to miss out on the huge highs in return for an enjoyable and fulfilling 95% of life.

 

[fela fan]

Thing is, while you have a point, when you get older and have sprogs, many people lose the inclination and ability to do the long haul travel thing, so prefer to spend their money on feathering their nest. I used to be out every night, and go travelling a lot - now I like to stay home in my nice comfy nest with all my toys.

Yeah, but some like myself went travelling, but for whatever reason never returned. Others got a job abroad thinking they'd be back in a year or so, but never returned. We kind of end up doing that 'settling in' thing like most people back in britain, but it just ended up getting done somewhere else. Most people can travel for so long, eventually age starts to tell them to slow it all down at some point.

 

[fela fan]

It sweeps you away, city life does, like a mudslide. Although I live in Tottenham, I work from home and I live on the marsh, so I feel a bit protected from it. I only go into the West End if I really have to. I met a friend in a city pub last week. I was at the whole thing. I had to remind myself that I didn't used to be so freaked out by it.

When you're caught up in that way of life you don't notice it or how it affects you. I think it's a bit unnatural for us - we've only lived in cities like this for a few generations, yet our species is thousands of years old.

It's a good point, and when somebody goes off travelling and makes this discovery, they come back and want to help their friends become aware. Trouble is people might get knocked conscious into the life they're living and don't want to know...

People living in cities is not much different to animals that have been put in zoos.

 

[selamlar]

Traditionally low status jobs that are satisfying, or at least allow one to get in a trance when you do them.

Which is why, of course, no one in the 'Third World'/'Global South' etc ever wants to move away from it/better themselves . Ask the average person over here about the karmic rewards for doing shitty back breaking jobs for a pittance, and they would look at you like you are crazy. As, indeed, would anyone who works in a factory or an office in the UK, where it is all too easy to fall into a 'trace' while at work, man.

I wonder if later point is one of the reasons Indian workers seem to use such bad tools. Soft iron manties for digging or brooms without handles leaving women bent at right angles?

Or maybe its because it is much cheaper to produce crappy soft iron etc than it is to produce steel, and peasant labour is cheaper and more expendable for the land owners than tractors etc. My in-laws are (were?) peasants, and its shit.

Indians are generally more sociable and friendly,

Or maybe because its because they are happy little darkies working in the fields. FFS.

Romanticism isn't the word I am looking for.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I wonder if the two are correlated. Perhaps the secret to happiness is not an easy life, but one of small but winnable battles. Not building a great tower but say keeping on top of the laundry.

Traditionally low status jobs that are satisfying, or at least allow one to get in a trance when you do them. That are still practiced more in India. Lower aspirations or more realistic aspirations maybe? Because people never imagine doing anything else.

I wonder if later point is one of the reasons Indian workers seem to use such bad tools. Soft iron manties for digging or brooms without handles leaving women bent at right angles?

Indians are generally more sociable and friendly, they probably don't suffer the same isolation. Hardship does strengthen bonds in a way, a shared experience - like how people show character in adversity. And you tend to talk to your neighbours more when it snows.

TP (Waiting for an accusation of romanticism)

Much of what you say is down to Hinduism.

Go to the far north west of India and you'll find a much different attitude.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I didn't find it that hard going back to the UK. In fact after China a lot about the UK was something of a relief.

China isn't somewhere that westerners can easily get misty-eyed and romantic about. Which I think is a good thing, on balance.

 

[Felina]

Me too - although I don't have a new sofa yet.

God I hate smug travellers who think they've reached enlightenment after a few months holiday.

I didn't read it like that. Sometimes I find the whole material thing bizarre. My boyfriend is obsessed with getting a massive telly and a really expensive bike. I'm just not up for spending my money like that. I never grew up with much 'stuff' and I'd rather spend money on experiencing things. That's what we did when I was younger and I just don't get any pleasure from most material things. I don't expect everyone to feel the same as me but it's ok to not want it for yourself.

And it does cause a problem when your boyfriend/friends want such widely different things from you (in some ways)

 

[Trufflepig]

Which is why, of course, no one in the 'Third World'/'Global South' etc ever wants to move away from it/better themselves . Ask the average person over here about the karmic rewards for doing shitty back breaking jobs for a pittance, and they would look at you like you are crazy. As, indeed, would anyone who works in a factory or an office in the UK, where it is all too easy to fall into a 'trace' while at work, man.



Or maybe its because it is much cheaper to produce crappy soft iron etc than it is to produce steel, and peasant labour is cheaper and more expendable for the land owners than tractors etc. My in-laws are (were?) peasants, and its shit.

Or maybe because its because they are happy little darkies working in the fields. FFS.

Romanticism isn't the word I am looking for.

Just how far over does one have to bend to avoid being categorised?

We could have discussion here confirming the commonly held view as per the daily mail. Yes life is brutal,short and tragic for many, of course not many people over there would not share my view. But we are not talking about the commonly held view. More interesting to discuss the exceptions.

It was observed that Indians seem generally happier than people in the UK when life is harder and less secure.

This runs contra to the ideas we've been brought up with in the West.

I'm pondering the idea that it is the lack of a safety net that forces people to look out for one another, and hardships that bring out the best in the character. Not that hardship is desirable, or that it should be imposed for ones own good. Do give me some credit.

I'm not talking karmic rewards - in the UK for example friends who work on production lines or as brickies generally get on with it. Its those who went into the city who are getting stomach ulcers and always looking over their shoulders. Constantly chasing promotion, never spend time with their kids, and hoovering up booze + coke whenever they get the chance.

Yes it is cheaper to produce crap tools, but that is not the whole of the argument - adding a stick to a broom for example. Even if you are a cunt of an employer, with a little improvement to the design you could squeeze more labour out of the workforce.

The economics are totally different making comparison in these terms useless. But in the UK where the rate for labouring and in a call centre work is comparable - I've been calmer, happier, fitter and enjoyed more banter labouring than being in the office.

Have a look at this article about the increase in anxiety, suicide + depression in Bangalore:-
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/14iype.htm

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It was observed that Indians seem generally happier than people in the UK when life is harder and less secure.

I gather that you have more experience of people in the UK when you make that comparison? How much time have you spent with Indian nationals - what are you making that comparison on? Unless you have spent a very long period of time living in the culture and making friends with a wide variety of locals then I think that assertion is suspect and biased, because you can't make a direct comparison.

And even in the UK, I think the assertion that workers in lower economic jobs = happier than city bods is suspect. It might be the case in the people you know, but poverty in any country hardly makes it easy to be content and happy.

In general, countries have their good points and their bad points. Different groups in a country (e.g. classes, castes) are also likely to experience different good and bad aspects. One country may seem less complicated and rat racey, but it might also have more extreme poverty. It's perhaps easier to pick up on the good parts of a "simple life" in India when you're a traveller moving through with financial security and not having to work, or at least not in the local low paid jobs you seem to hold so highly in your esteem.

However, this is not saying that wanting to eschew the culture of consumerism when you get back to the UK is a bad thing. Part of travelling can be to make you re-examine your priorities, and if that's a lesson that you wish to take from your travels, then so be it. But please don't make assumptions about the level of "happiness" in cultures I'm guessing you still have limited knowledge about.

[edit] rises in mental illness rates and suicide don't necessarily mean represent an actual rise in suffering btw. They are just as likely to represent more knowledge about mental illness and thus an increased tendency to diagnose it, or less stigma in coming forward with mental illness or recording deaths as suicide.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Btw trufflepig, you may find Maslow's hierarchy of needs interesting. It sort of supports what you're saying about as a culture gets more "developed" (for want of a better term), then the conflict/suffering becomes more abstract and existential. However, I don't think that the suffering is any greater in richer countries. If anything, you could make a point about how it seems to be human nature for large numbers of people to suffer, in any culture. At least the way we've been doing it so far.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

It's a good point, and when somebody goes off travelling and makes this discovery, they come back and want to help their friends become aware. Trouble is people might get knocked conscious into the life they're living and don't want to know...

People living in cities is not much different to animals that have been put in zoos.[/QUOTE]

I really don't agree with this.

I don't live in London any longer - not because I dislike it but beacause my husband works elsewhere - but I still work here so see on a weekday basis the rush, pace of life etc..

However I have always found it easy to shut this off. At home once my front door was shut that was it, I was in my own space - I walk around the streets and parks (less so sadly now I'm a bit of a crip) and I find my own space. Yes a crowded tube on a hot commute can be horrible but the stress pases quickly

Okay there are huge problems in London in terms of the cost of living but I never felt like I was in a zoo and I always felt able to escape from any stresses the city may throw at me.

 

[Trufflepig]

I gather that you have more experience of people in the UK when you make that comparison? How much time have you spent with Indian nationals - what are you making that comparison on? Unless you have spent a very long period of time living in the culture and making friends with a wide variety of locals then I think that assertion is suspect and biased, because you can't make a direct comparison.

Of course its biased, I've only a limited experience - I'm no anthropologist, but neither an I misty eyed gap year student. And travel for me was not a huge revelation about consumerism. When other primary school kids were comparing branded trainers I wore wellies ffs

Im not holding low paid jobs in high esteem. It was the nature of the work - and how that impacts on the national psyche.

By way of an analogy look at yoga vs weight lifting. A little bit every day, in your room, no fuss, no ego, get on with it attitude versus standing on a podium grunting and lifting dangerous weight.

Forgive me if I'm apt to talk in abstracts. Happiness is a difficult thing to measure and Im not about to attempt it. I know I favour experiences and people over things. I'd much rather sit around to music from a half chewed tape on a paint splattered player with mates and cheap wine. Than alone with a bang and oluffson super DV million.1 surround on hire purchase and chateaux du Rothschild.

 

[Trufflepig]

Btw trufflepig, you may find Maslow's hierarchy of needs interesting. It sort of supports what you're saying about as a culture gets more "developed" (for want of a better term), then the conflict/suffering becomes more abstract and existential. However, I don't think that the suffering is any greater in richer countries. If anything, you could make a point about how it seems to be human nature for large numbers of people to suffer, in any culture. At least the way we've been doing it so far.

Thanks, I'm well aware of Maslow, as a teenager I probably quoted him everyday

I think its also the reason many people keep smoking. At *some* level there is something nice about satisfying a craving - that beats not having the craving at all.

 

[fela fan]

I gather that you have more experience of people in the UK when you make that comparison? How much time have you spent with Indian nationals - what are you making that comparison on? Unless you have spent a very long period of time living in the culture and making friends with a wide variety of locals then I think that assertion is suspect and biased, because you can't make a direct comparison.

A question i've often asked myself is the 'happy' one. It is difficult to say britain beats thailand. But getting too close to any society reveals an ugly underbelly anywhere. So although i think thai people are generally more content than british people, certainly more welcoming and sociable, the real contentment in life comes from keeping out of the clutches of society's omniprescent demands.

And that's the main good-feeling factor that derives from a bit of travel. Suddenly one is free. Any culture shock met in the destination land is done in a positive context. Reverse culture shock on the other hand is felt in a negative light, because all the previously subconscious shackles to one's freedom are suddenly exposed for what they are. Unburdened, it becomes natural to try and show our friends the 'way'. It is soon learned this will not be possible!

Travel doesn't broaden one's horizons, it releases one from the shackles of society. In this sense wherever one goes will imbue this beautiful feeling of freedom, and naturally enough returning to the mother country often results in this reverse culture shock, the shock at meeting those shackles head on having found out what it's like without them.

This is why many who travelled have problems reorienting back home, and many emigrants have problems if they return home.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

It's funny that people complain about how much more stressed people are back home. For me, going back from China, the UK, even Hackney always feel so peaceful!!!

 

[pinkmonkey]

I didn't find it that hard going back to the UK. In fact after China a lot about the UK was something of a relief.

China isn't somewhere that westerners can easily get misty-eyed and romantic about. Which I think is a good thing, on balance.

Well for me, if I ever get misty eyed about DongGuan it's because I'm reminded of the pollution!

 

[Brainaddict]

China isn't somewhere that westerners can easily get misty-eyed and romantic about.

Well, you can before you go there

 

[gnoriac]

As for reverse culture shock, I am often surprised at how miserable folk are back home in UK when compared to people in India, for whom life is much less secure and a constant struggle.

It's not just India, I find there's a distinct lack of joie de vivre in the UK compared to most of the tropical countries. In Thailand, for instance, there's the whole thing of sanuk, your job may be back-breaking and poorly paid but there's time to have a bit of a laugh with your mates. In fact, whenever I've tried to describe to describe the UK to Thai mates, the 1st phrase that comes to mind is 'mai sanuk'.
Not just the tropics though, I find other European countries while not having that tropical buzz have at least big compensations in terms of their way of life and coming back here it all suddenly feels very grim and workaholic with an underlying current of nastiness.

 

[pinkmonkey]

I commuted for years and (I thought) it didn't bother or affect me, now when I get on the tube I feel like an outsider - it's smelly, everyone looks utterly fucked off, it's a really miserable experience. Mai sanuk indeed.

 

[fela fan]

From the original culture shock context: wan nee sanuk mak...

Even before i left england i've always talked of a tax on fun in england. I see loads of fun inspectors all around reigning in the naughty folk with their taxes on fun.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

It's not just India, I find there's a distinct lack of joie de vivre in the UK compared to most of the tropical countries. In Thailand, for instance, there's the whole thing of sanuk, your job may be back-breaking and poorly paid but there's time to have a bit of a laugh with your mates. In fact, whenever I've tried to describe to describe the UK to Thai mates, the 1st phrase that comes to mind is 'mai sanuk'.
Not just the tropics though, I find other European countries while not having that tropical buzz have at least big compensations in terms of their way of life and coming back here it all suddenly feels very grim and workaholic with an underlying current of nastiness.

From the original culture shock context: wan nee sanuk mak...

Even before i left england i've always talked of a tax on fun in england. I see loads of fun inspectors all around reigning in the naughty folk with their taxes on fun.

Maybe I have a different mentality or live in a different part of the UK than you have but I really don't notice this is my day to day life.

Yeah my job is not all that satisfying but I have some close friends here - who I have fun and a laugh with - and it allows me, outside work, to persue the other interests I enjoy. And I don't mean binge drinking on a Saturday evenimg

You make it sound like everyone in England is going around head down in a daze of gloom, misery and hate. I know things are a bit grim in this country, politically as much as anything, but, honestly, it ain't like that. Not in my experience anyway.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I also manage to have fun in the UK. I managed to have enormous fun in the UK a couple of years back, and even now I'm completing the most challenging qualification I've ever done (a temporary thing that will pass, thankfully as I really don't take well to being overworked ), I still manage to have some fun. Am I meant to not be having any?

For those who can't seem to do so...

 

[fela fan]

Maybe I have a different mentality or live in a different part of the UK than you have but I really don't notice this is my day to day life.

Yeah my job is not all that satisfying but I have some close friends here - who I have fun and a laugh with - and it allows me, outside work, to persue the other interests I enjoy. And I don't mean binge drinking on a Saturday evenimg

You make it sound like everyone in England is going around head down in a daze of gloom, misery and hate. I know things are a bit grim in this country, politically as much as anything, but, honestly, it ain't like that. Not in my experience anyway.

Hey, i didn't say anything about not having fun! Just that there are people out there who will do their best to reduce or remove it from you. And if you have too much fun, then gloomy, miserable, hateful people will do their best to give you some of what they've got. And they're bloody good at it.

In many ways an obsession with security took lots of fun out of life in england. As does following rules slavishly, or rather the rule slave doing their best to get you to succumb to the rules.

A final thought. There are two englands: the winter and the summer one. The latter is rather a positive one, the winter not so.