Revealed: Victorian England's views of Welsh

[niclas]

But cultural imperialism, given the circumstances that enabled it's rise, was inevitable!

Therefore, the decline of languages like Welsh, Cornish and Irish were likewise inevitable! I mean, one could even argue the process has carried on with native speakers of Dutch, Flemish and Danish often being as fluent in English as well as their native tongues, and English becoming one of the main requirements for international business.

Yes, that's another kind of cultural imperialism.

But I think even Fanta would agree there's a difference between a Dutch person who is fluent in her/his own language (which is officially recognised and respected) but also speaks English/German/French fluently to communicate on the internet or whatever and a minority language that (until 1967) had no official recognition and was literally beaten out of a generation of kids.

Of course things have changed now and the British state has adopted a view that the Welsh language can be thrown some crumbs. The fundamentals that threaten its existence as a living community language aren't altered (i.e. free-market capitalism, unaffordable housing and lack of decent jobs) but as long as we can watch Pobol y Cwm on $4C and get a pitiful grant for the National Eisteddfod we shouldn't complain too much, should we?

Historical circumstances mean that languages will change, evolve, decline and/or come to prominence.

What was your subject on Mastermind - the bleedin' obvious?

I wonder if you think the decline of Latin, Ancient Arabic, Aramaic or even Olde/Middle English were inevitable or some dastardly imperialist plot?!

Latin evolved into Italian, Spanish, French, etc, etc. Ancient Arabic presumably became modern Arabic. Old English became Modern English with a lot of Norman and other words thrown in. Your point?

 

[fanta]

Your point?

That all languages change and evolve with some declining and others coming to prominence.

Welsh is a language and is therefore subject to the above.

For somebody who seems fond of the phrase the ''bleedin' obvious'' you don't appear to be determined not to grasp it's meaning.

 

[Brockway]

Define English then.

German squatters.

Fanta you're an apologist for English imperialism and you know you are.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Define English then.

Can i try?

How about 'that pertaining to the land of England'

Usages of this term are as below

e.g. the English football team - the football team that represents England

or

irritating English cunt

 

[Gavin Bl]

That all languages change and evolve with some declining and others coming to prominence.

Welsh is a language and is therefore subject to the above.

For somebody who seems fond of the phrase the ''bleedin' obvious'' you don't appear to be determined not to grasp it's meaning.

Natural evolution of a language is different to attempts to eradicate a language.

 

[Gavin Bl]

Welsh Nationalism has nothing to do with any other kind of nationalism. For example, compare the Welsh Nationalism of Plaid Cymru to the British Nationalism of the London establishment- one is concerned with progressive politics and an international Wales, the other is concerned with holding on to a multi-national empire.

Agreed, but its not hard to look into a future where it could (repeat could) be used to different ends - where legitimate critcism of 'England/Englishness' and its impact on Wales, becomes transformed into simply attacking English people, using crude nationalist language as a distraction from other divisions or injustices.

Currently though I agree, equating welsh nationalism and british nationalism is pretty crass.

 

[cathal marcs]

But come on, this is the Welsh forum and cathal marcs should be allowed to trumpet his indignant prejudice!

Because those English - sorry, Sais - are all the same you know?!

Carry on cathal...

In what ways am I trumpeting my 'indignat prejudice'? Ive only posted an article thatI thought would be of interest to some Welsh posters here and judging by the number of replies its stimulated some debate.

What makes you think I dislike people from England i wouldn't live in England if I dislike them. Where have I ever made derogatory remarks about English folk to lead you to this assertion?

You might not have noticed, but the very thread title implied (deliberately I suspect) that all of victorian England held the same prejudiced views towards the Welsh and their language that is expressed in the 'report'!

No sinister intentions just a direct copy and paste of the title of the article bud. Ive changed the title of this thread for you didn't think it would cause offence I just viewed it as a timeline to be honest.

 

[niclas]

What have the English ever done for us?

That all languages change and evolve with some declining and others coming to prominence.

Welsh is a language and is therefore subject to the above.

For somebody who seems fond of the phrase the ''bleedin' obvious'' you don't appear to be determined not to grasp it's meaning.

The examples you gave were not relevant to Welsh - unless Aramaic speakers had an Aramaic Not, the Aramaic Language Board and such like foisted on them (we're straying into Life of Brian territory here...)

You were trying to show that Welsh declined *inevitably*. I reject that claim and have tried to show otherwise. I don't think you've explained the inevitability of the decline at all.

 

[fanta]

German squatters.

Fanta you're an apologist for English imperialism and you know you are.

Simplistic excrement. What about the input of the Norse, Romans, Europeans, Africans, Asians & Celts into the make up of the English?

The English are the world's most illigitimate 'race', we've got everybodys' blood running through our veins.

How much better is that than the hopeless veneration of being a 'pure' celt or 'pure' aryan or 'pure' whatever...

You're just showing your desperation in accusing me of being an English imperialist and you know it.

You know you will not be able to find a single post of mine that supports any sort of imperialism - you've probably already had a quick search already, right? - but go on have another pointless look...

...then I'll accept your apology later, you mug!

 

[fanta]

Can i try?

After some more practice, I think.

Dickhead.

 

[Belushi]

Simplistic excrement. What about the input of the Norse, Romans, Europeans, Africans, Asians & Celts into the make up of the English?

What about it? This obsession with 'racial purity' is all in your own head and simply reflects your own racist views.

 

[fanta]

You were trying to show that Welsh declined *inevitably*. I reject that claim and have tried to show otherwise. I don't think you've explained the inevitability of the decline at all.

That is fair enough.

I think it was inevitable because England - for better or for worse - was destined to become, because of historical factors like Industrial Revolution, geography, trade and nascent empire, one of the most powerful; nations on the planet.

Not supporting or venerating that, just stating it as opinon...

 

[fanta]

No sinister intentions just a direct copy and paste of the title of the article bud. Ive changed the title of this thread for you didn't think it would cause offence I just viewed it as a timeline to be honest.

Ok, fair enough. I believe you and apologies...

 

[fanta]

What about it? This obsession with 'racial purity' is all in your own head and simply reflects your own racist views.

You can scuttle off now and help that mug Brockway find some evidence for that, pal!

 

[editor]

This obsession with 'racial purity' is all in your own head and simply reflects your own racist views.

Noted for the next time he starts following me around the boards trying to drag this topic up again.

 

[fanta]

Noted for the next time he starts following me around the boards trying to drag this topic up again.

Following you around?

Don't fucking flatter yourself!

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

You can scuttle off now and help that mug Brockway find some evidence for that, pal!

What next?

Jog on?

 

[Belushi]

What next?

Jog on?

Poor old Orange Cunt, he's got nothing better to do in life than desperately try and troll the welsh forum

 

[fanta]

Poor old Orange Cunt, he's got nothing better to do in life than desperately try and troll the welsh forum

Is this a witty way of disguising the fact that you haven't found any examples yet?

Awww...

 

[Belushi]

Is this a witty way of disguising the fact that you haven't found any examples yet?

Awww...

Your foul bigotry is plain to see every time you attempt to troll the wales forum.

Your a bigotted cunt with a chip on your shoulder about the welsh, you were well and truly rumbled a long time ago, bleating on about 'evidence' just makes you look even more of a self pitying twat.

 

[Hollis]

You can read the Poor Law commission reports in an A-Level history textbook as I did two or three years ago.

Yes.. not quite the point I was making though.. its not as if these Blue books have suddenly become declassified information.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Is this a witty way of disguising the fact that you haven't found any examples yet?

Awww...

What examples are you looking for?

I've become disorientated because of your foul mouth tirades.

 

[fanta]

Your foul bigotry is plain to see every time you attempt to troll the wales forum.

Your a bigotted cunt with a chip on your shoulder about the welsh, you were well and truly rumbled a long time ago, bleating on about 'evidence' just makes you look even more of a self pitying twat.

Curiously though, only plain to see for those who spectacularly fail, like you, to provide any examples of it though...t'is a very strange thing!

Rather they just froth at the mouth like you - go on, demonstrate your superior debating skills by calling me a cunt again, this time with real feeling!

 

[fanta]

What examples are you looking for?

Of being a bigot! You lovable slow-learner.

I've become disorientated because of your foul mouth tirades.

Foul mouthed tirades?

Can this be the same daft Rubbery one who once opined: irritating English cunt?

Surely not!!!

 

[Belushi]

Curiously though, only plain to see for those who spectacularly fail, like you, to provide any examples of it though...t'is a very strange thing!

Rather they just froth at the mouth like you - go on, demonstrate your superior debating skills by calling me a cunt again, this time with real feeling!

The 'evidence' of your cuntishness is in every lying, bigotted post you make fanta, as well you know. I dont think anyone is fooled anymore by the desperate whining about 'evidence' every time you get caught trolling.

 

[editor]

Well, this thread's turning into a right charmer!

 

[Belushi]

Well, this thread's turning into a right charmer!

Its the same old bigots who attempt to derail no end of threads in the wales forum.

 

[Hollis]

Its the same old bigots who attempt to derail no end of threads in the wales forum.

Oh really Belushi.. and assuming you include me, perhaps you'd like to explain how i'm "derailing" this thead.

 

[Belushi]

Oh really Belushi.. and assuming you include me, perhaps you'd like to explain how i'm "derailing" this thead.

Why are you assuming I'm including you?

You've been behaving yourself as far as I'm aware since your last banning for your anti-welsh bigotry.

 

[Belushi]

Still dont let the facts try and get in the way of trying to start a fight eh?