Revealed: Victorian England's views of Welsh

[fanta]

"Do you think this report was an accurate representation of everyone in England's views at the time?

Yes/No?"

Tell me something, using your logic - who was to blame for the Jewish holocaust: Hitler? The Nazi hierarchy? or the German people?

The Jewish Holocauset can hardly be blamed on one single reason, enitity, person or people.

Factors such as the Treaty of Versaille, the economic condition of Weimar and an ingrained European tradition of anti-semitism surely played important parts.

But to suggest that every single German or European was anti-semitic is absurd - as is you apparent analogy of a 20th century genocide and a 19th century prejudiced 'report' on Wales/the Welsh language by the English Ruling elite.

Oh, and lewislewis: I'll mock anybody who deserves it regardless - and especially because - of their sacred precious nationalism. Ok?!

 

[editor]

Oh, and lewislewis: I'll mock anybody who deserves it regardless - and especially because - of their sacred precious nationalism.

Seeing as you seem particularly active in this forum and I rarely see you banging on about other forms of nationalism, exactly why do the Welsh particularly 'deserve' it?

 

[fanta]

For the second time: there is no means of knowing what "everyone" in England thought at any given time, neither is it remotely likely that every single person in the country would all share the opinion, so your question is a complete non starter.

Or, to give it to you in your favoured YES/NO format, YES, it is a stupid fucking question and NO, I don't think you're capable of backing up your opinions, despite being repeatedly asked to do so.

Perhaps you'd be better off just admitting that you have absolutely no evidence that the outrageous linguistic/religious prejudice shown in the Blue Books was on a par with "anyone who spoke a provincial dialect/language throughout the whole of the UK", and then maybe you might reflect while you're making such ill-informed, unresearched claims.

I think that is a 'yes'! If so, well done.

Hopefully, this is the last time I need to repeat this to you: I was making a statement of opinon, definitely NOT historical fact.

There is of course no way of proving my supposition one way or the other - well duh!

And anyway, why have you suddenly become so fucking obssessed on evidence? You've constantly ignored countless requests to back unfounded and thoroughly stupid accusations of bigotry and you have spectacularly failed to provide any evidence!

 

[fanta]

Seeing as you seem particularly active in this forum and I rarely see you banging on about other forms of nationalism, exactly why do the Welsh particularly 'deserve' it?

Check my posts slating Irish Republicans and their equally dumb knuckle-dragging loyalist and British nationalist counterparts.

They're all bonkers...

 

[editor]

Hopefully, this is the last time I need to repeat this to you: I was making a statement of opinon, definitely NOT historical fact.

So you start debating on a thread discussing a specific historical document with a viewpoint that is entirely made up in your head and untroubled by any research, study or evidence?

Why?

Perhaps you'd be better off keeping your ignorant comments to yourself and letting those who are prepared to enage in an informed debate get on with it, no?

You might even learn something, you know.

Oh, and what's inherently 'nationalist' about discussing a historical document that dismissed my countrymen and women as "dirty, ignorant, lazy, drunk, superstitious, lying, and cheating" - just because they were Nonconformists and spoke Welsh?

 

[Brockway]

But to suggest that every single German or European was anti-semitic is absurd - as is you apparent analogy of a 20th century genocide and a 19th century prejudiced 'report' on Wales/the Welsh language by the English Ruling elite.

Just interested in how you opportion blame. On the one hand you seem to blame a few individuals in a 'nothing to do with us guv' manner; on the other just about everybody appears to be culpable.

Who do you blame for England's colonization of Wales; India; Jamaica; Barbados; East Africa; Ireland; Afghanistan and all the others?

 

[Hollis]

Unfortunately it won't appear in any paper other than the Western Mail...we are forced to put up with Anglo-Centric media all the time. Its time to break with the British establishment.

Well its hardly earth shattering news is it? A 150+ year old report is now available publicly.. I can't remember too many articles in the "Anglo-Centric" media telling us that we can now access the Poor Law commission reports online.. (for example).

 

[Hollis]

It was certainly the view of the commission who made the report, who were appointed by the ruling 'British' ruling elite and indeed reportred back their reccomendations, to be implemented.

Actually wasn't a Welshman involved in setting up the commission?

 

[editor]

Well its hardly earth shattering news is it?

I certainly can see why it shouldn't be of much interest to someone like you, but for Welsh people interested in their history, the document is a fascinating insight into the attitudes that helped shape their nation.

As a result of the document, the oldest language spoken in Britain was nearly destroyed, and the Welsh maligned as ignorant, lazy and immoral.

And yes, the commission was set up by a Welsh MP (living in Coventry) but the research was done by three English commissioners, whose inability to understand a single word of Welsh (which the majority of Welsh people spoke at the time) and their dislike of noncomformity arrived at their damning conclusion.

With no understanding of Welsh, the commissioners had to rely on information from witnesses, many of them Anglican clergymen.

Culturally, the report had a major impact on the Welsh who were outraged at the findings, and some say that its effects can still be perceived today.

So that's what it's important to us, English boy.

 

[fanta]

So you start debating on a thread discussing a specific historical document with a viewpoint that is entirely made up in your head and untroubled by any research, study or evidence?

Why?

Perhaps you'd be better off keeping your ignorant comments to yourself and letting those who are prepared to enage in an informed debate get on with it, no?

You might even learn something, you know.

Oh, and what's inherently 'nationalist' about discussing a historical document that dismissed my countrymen and women as "dirty, ignorant, lazy, drunk, superstitious, lying, and cheating" - just because they were Nonconformists and spoke Welsh?

You might not have noticed, but the very thread title implied (deliberately I suspect) that all of victorian England held the same prejudiced views towards the Welsh and their language that is expressed in the 'report'!

You reinforced (again, deliberately I suspect) this absurd notion by suggesting that the ideas might have somehow filtered down to ordinary English people, and somehow, by extension the whole of England.

You then compound the sheer absurdity of your fatuous argument by asserting my suggestion that maybe all of Victorian England didn't think like that is ignorant!

Finally, you go for the dishonest hat trick of questioning what I think is 'nationalist' about discussing the historical document in question!

Which is not the case, as you know. I'm taking issue with the illogical nationalist argument whose logical conclusion is to believe and argue that 100% of another nation thought the same, are all to blame, and are all equally bad.

That, it is just too silly and argument to make...

 

[fanta]

Just interested in how you opportion blame. On the one hand you seem to blame a few individuals in a 'nothing to do with us guv' manner; on the other just about everybody appears to be culpable.

Who do you blame for England's colonization of Wales; India; Jamaica; Barbados; East Africa; Ireland; Afghanistan and all the others?

I think historians have been grappling for years working out who was to blame for the Holocaust, and I'm sure they will continue in that task for years to come...

The question is, as are the ones in your second paragraph very complex that would take whole volumes to answer.

Some people, entities and ideas - ranging from capitalism/market forces, religious zealotry, the propertied classes, industrial leaders, their workers and customers and their greed - were perhaps more to blame than others.

They're huge questions you're asking...

...what do you think?

 

[Hollis]

I certainly can see why it shouldn't be of much interest to someone like you, but for Welsh people interested in their history, the document is a fascinating insight into the attitudes that helped shape their nation.

So that's what it's important to us, English boy.

But that wasn't really my point was it lewislewis started going on about "Anglo Centric" media not reporting that this document is now available online.

Perhaps you could tell me of the news stories of other 150 year old reports now being available online. Its really not big news.

 

[editor]

Perhaps you could tell me of the news stories of other 150 year old reports now being available online. Its really not big news.

Since when are all your threads 'big news'?



Being English, with what seems something of an inherrent dislike of the Welsh, I can see why it may not be of interest to you.

But please don't try and speak on the behalf of Welsh people.
That document changed my nation and its availability online is big news to me.

 

[fanta]

I certainly can see why it shouldn't be of much interest to someone like you, but for Welsh people interested in their history, the document is a fascinating insight into the attitudes that helped shape their nation.

As a result of the document, the oldest language spoken in Britain was nearly destroyed, and the Welsh maligned as ignorant, lazy and immoral.

And yes, the commission was set up by a Welsh MP (living in Coventry) but the research was done by three English commissioners, whose inability to understand a single word of Welsh (which the majority of Welsh people spoke at the time) and their dislike of noncomformity arrived at their damning conclusion.

With no understanding of Welsh, the commissioners had to rely on information from witnesses, many of them Anglican clergymen.

Culturally, the report had a major impact on the Welsh who were outraged at the findings, and some say that its effects can still be perceived today.

So that's what it's important to us, English boy.

Well , I think it is historically fascinating, though I doubt the report was directly responsible for the near destruction of the Welsh language.

The decline of Welsh as a spoken language was, sadly, I think inevitably. Certainly the report didn't help and even compounded that decline, but it was not solely to blame.

The tragedy of course is that bigotry begets bigotry and perpetuates itself.

English boy - there is no need for this by the way...

 

[editor]

You might not have noticed, but the very thread title implied (deliberately I suspect) that all of victorian England held the same prejudiced views towards the Welsh and their language that is expressed in the 'report'!

You reinforced (again, deliberately I suspect) this absurd notion by suggesting that the ideas might have somehow filtered down to ordinary English people, and somehow, by extension the whole of England.

Actually, the title is simply offering a timeframe, rather like a TV show may talk of 'Victorian England's fashions.'

Seems blazingly obvious to me.

 

[Hollis]

Since when are all your threads 'big news'?



Being English, with what seems something of an inherrent dislike of the Welsh, I can see why it may not be of interest to you.

But please don't try and speak on the behalf of Welsh people.
That document changed my nation and its availability online is big news to me.

Not really anything of any substance here. Can you provide any examples of the "Anglo-Centric" media proudly announcing that 19th century Govt reports are now available online?

Probably not.

 

[editor]

Well , I think it is historically fascinating, though I doubt the report was directly responsible for the near destruction of the Welsh language.

Actually, the use of the language fell drastically after the report - have you never heard of the 'Welsh not'?

One drastic remedy -- the imposition of English-only Board Schools did much to further hasten the decline of Welsh over a great part of the country. In these schools, as in Flintshire a half century earlier, the "Welsh Not" rule was imposed with severe penalties for speaking Welsh, including the wearing of a wooden board, the old "Welsh lump" around one's neck.
http://www.britannia.com/wales/whist17b.html

The report lamented what the commissioners considered to be the sad state of education in Wales, the too-few schools, their deplorable condition, the unqualified teachers, the lack of supplies and suitable English texts, and the irregular attendance of the children. All these were attributed, along with dirtiness, laziness, ignorance, superstition, promiscuity and immorality to Nonconformity in religion, but in particular to the Welsh language. As the report stated:

The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people. It is not easy to over-estimate its evil effects.

 

[editor]

Not really anything of any substance here. Can you provide any examples of the "Anglo-Centric" media proudly announcing that 19th century Govt reports are now available online?

Probably not.

I give up. Just because the report is of no interest to you, you have the arrogance to announce that they can't be of interest to anyone else.

 

[fanta]

Actually, the use of the language fell drastically after the report - have you never heard of the 'Welsh not'?

I think we're in agreement here.

I just don't think the report is the only reason and I suspect that the decline of Welsh - like Irish for that matter - was inevitable during and after the Industrial Revolution/the British Empire...

 

[Hollis]

I give up. Just because the report is of no interest to you, you have the arrogance to announce that they can't be of interest to anyone else.

Not at all.. You're either misreading my posts, or deliberately choosing not to understand.

 

[editor]

I think we're in agreement here.

I just don't think the report is the only reason and I suspect that the decline of Welsh - like Irish for that matter - was inevitable during and after the Industrial Revolution/the British Empire...

Not disagreeing, but the report vastly accelerated the decline, and it's right that the brutality shown in trying to get rid of the language should be publicised.

I'd never heard of the 'Welsh not' until long after school and it's recent history!

 

[Brockway]

I think historians have been grappling for years working out who was to blame for the Holocaust, and I'm sure they will continue in that task for years to come...

The question is, as are the ones in your second paragraph very complex that would take whole volumes to answer.

Some people, entities and ideas - ranging from capitalism/market forces, religious zealotry, the propertied classes, industrial leaders, their workers and customers and their greed - were perhaps more to blame than others.

They're huge questions you're asking...

...what do you think?

I blame the English.

 

[ddraig]

I blame the English.

who else!

oh and fanta naturally

 

[niclas]

There was nothing inevitable about the decline of the Welsh language - it was largely due to cultural imperialism,often with a complicit Welsh-speaking middle class that thought the way to "get on" was via English.

The impact of the Welsh Not and the Blue Books is part of that cultural imperialism. The use of a device like the Welsh Not was common in Brittany too (and I would guess the Scottish Highlands and Ireland) but I can't imagine a broad Yorkshire accent was treated with the same violence (remember the school child wearing the Not at the end of the week was caned).

This was not disdain for a "provincial" accent, as Fanta has claimed. It was violent hostility to a national language that was perceived to undermine the British/English identity.

And far from economic expansion being the death knell for the language, it was the boom in the Welsh coalfields that saved the Welsh language from going the way of Scots Gaelic - rather than emigrate and be absorbed culturally into the far greater US, Canadian, Australian or English populations, rural Welsh workers generally made their way to the Black Klondyke of the Valleys and N E Wales. They took their language with them.

 

[fanta]

I blame the English.

Define English then.

 

[Belushi]

And far from economic expansion being the death knell for the language, it was the boom in the Welsh coalfields that saved the Welsh language from going the way of Scots Gaelic - rather than emigrate and be absorbed culturally into the far greater US, Canadian, Australian or English populations, rural Welsh workers generally made their way to the Black Klondyke of the Valleys and N E Wales. They took their language with them.

Aye, and in some areas taught their English workmates welsh.

Another reason that welsh was abandoned by many welsh speakers was its association with the cloying world of the chapel, many young people in the first decades of the twentieth century (when welsh became a minority lanuage) abandoned welsh along with chapel going etc as they escaped the narrow traditional world of rural wales.

 

[fanta]

This was not disdain for a "provincial" accent, as Fanta has claimed. It was violent hostility to a national language that was perceived to undermine the British/English identity.

But cultural imperialism, given the circumstances that enabled it's rise, was inevitable!

Therefore, the decline of languages like Welsh, Cornish and Irish were likewise inevitable! I mean, one could even argue the process has carried on with native speakers of Dutch, Flemish and Danish often being as fluent in English as well as their native tongues, and English becoming one of the main requirements for international business.

Historical circumstances mean that languages will change, evolve, decline and/or come to prominence.

I wonder if you think the decline of Latin, Ancient Arabic, Aramaic or even Olde/Middle English were inevitable or some dastardly imperialist plot?!

 

[Gavin Bl]

Therefore, the decline of languages like Welsh, Cornish and Irish were likewise inevitable! I mean, one could even argue the process has carried on with native speakers of Dutch, Flemish and Danish often being as fluent in English as well as their native tongues, and English becoming one of the main requirements for international business.

This is fair enough as it goes, there is certainly a strong historical trend to the extinguishing of regional languages, but maybe not inevitable - otherwise, the language would have not recovered. And it recovered primarily because of the efforts of those loathesome welsh nationalists. Nationalism is always a dangerous game in the long run, but it can have a progressive role to play in more marginalised countries.

 

[lewislewis]

Well its hardly earth shattering news is it? A 150+ year old report is now available publicly.. I can't remember too many articles in the "Anglo-Centric" media telling us that we can now access the Poor Law commission reports online.. (for example).

You can read the Poor Law commission reports in an A-Level history textbook as I did two or three years ago.

 

[lewislewis]

This is fair enough as it goes, there is certainly a strong historical trend to the extinguishing of regional languages, but maybe not inevitable - otherwise, the language would have not recovered. And it recovered primarily because of the efforts of those loathesome welsh nationalists. Nationalism is always a dangerous game in the long run, but it can have a progressive role to play in more marginalised countries.

Welsh Nationalism has nothing to do with any other kind of nationalism. For example, compare the Welsh Nationalism of Plaid Cymru to the British Nationalism of the London establishment- one is concerned with progressive politics and an international Wales, the other is concerned with holding on to a multi-national empire.