Respect
- Thread starter Zeppo
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Rod Sleeves
New Member
Now just to make clear - I am not a Green party member or supporter (I have voted for them once or twice), and I would be more likely to vote for the SP (or NO2EU) than pretty much anyone else if I ever bother to vote again.
But - it doesn't matter how the Green Parties have acted in other countries at various times in their history. Or for that matter how they have acted in the handful of places they have got power in the UK.
At the moment, for a section of the electorate and wider population the Greens represent a broadly radical left vote, and indeed there are organised socialist forces within the GP such as the Green Left Network, it is fair to say a significant element of the Green vote comes from people who consider themselves left social democrats and socialists. They do have the most traditionally left manifesto and leaflets of any party with a realistic chance of getting elected in the Euros, and on many local councils.
They are by any definition a "leftwing" party. In a Venn diagram of NO2EU voters and Green Party voters there would unquestionably be some overlap.
Not that I would agree with any of those Greens blaming NO2EU for their failure to keep the BNP out - it is their own fault, although what part of their approach is exactly to blame I do not know.
dennisr
the acceptable face
On that point I am guessing that NI would agree with you - as I would.
The problem is how that progressive vote is mutated into what the elected Green party do in practice.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
It's not an issue about whether you can trust the Green Party.
The choice was whether Peter Cranie. a solid trade union activist, anti-racist and anti-war campaigner and a socialist, was elected - or whether a fascist was.
Much as I admire his principles, Roger Bannister was never in the running.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Actually, as UKIP were significantly closer to the last seat then the Greens, the question is whether UKIP or a fascist took it.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well he clearly wouldn't as he insists there is no crossover between their demographics.
He clearly isn't much cop at electoral maths tho, if he thinks only UKIP could possibly have overtaken the BNP.
Silver_Fox
New Member
Whatever the merits of all this, it seems a little bizarre to suggest that there is no cross over between the Greens and No2EU.
Nigel seems to be arguing that most people who voted No2EU did so because of the right wing sounding name.
If you think No2EU got any progressive support then surely the biggest crossover with that group would have been the Greens. From what I remember the manifesto of both groups was fairly similar, if anything the Greens were a bit more left wing.
So you've either got a situation in which No2EU was picking up right wing votes on the basis of its name or that there is a crossover between the Greens and No2EU.
I doubt there were many people at all who looked at the UKIP/BNP manifestos or election broadcasts and then the No2EU ones and changed their vote on that basis.
Also what does different demographics mean? What is the demographics of No2EU and the Greens and how do they differ?
Rightly or wrongly I think the argument of the Greens is that if No2EU hadn't stood then most of those votes would have gone to the Greens. They would also argue that the reason the Greens shouldn't stand down for UKIP is because the Greens are a left alternative.
Don't agree with that, but that's what they would say in reply to Nigel asking why the Greens didn't stand aside for UKIP. They would say that getting a left candidate in against the BNP was a knife edge, that No2EU had no chance and therefore should have stood down for the Greens.
I have to say that I doubt many votes at all would have gone from No2EU to the BNP if they hadn't have stood. They probably took votes off both UKIP (because of their names) and the Greens (because of their politics).
In terms of maths, and presuming hardly any of the votes of No2EU would have gone to the BNP the Greens needed 5000 of the No2EU votes to beat the BNP, only 21% of No2EUs votes.
Now putting forward a political argument as to why No2EU should have stood is one thing. But to argue that the Greens wouldn't have beaten the BNP even if No2EU had stood down is pretty implausible. I just can't believe that more than 21% of the No2EU votes wouldn't have shifted to the Greens given how similar their politics were.
Nigel seems to be arguing that most people who voted No2EU did so because of the right wing sounding name.
If you think No2EU got any progressive support then surely the biggest crossover with that group would have been the Greens. From what I remember the manifesto of both groups was fairly similar, if anything the Greens were a bit more left wing.
So you've either got a situation in which No2EU was picking up right wing votes on the basis of its name or that there is a crossover between the Greens and No2EU.
I doubt there were many people at all who looked at the UKIP/BNP manifestos or election broadcasts and then the No2EU ones and changed their vote on that basis.
Also what does different demographics mean? What is the demographics of No2EU and the Greens and how do they differ?
Rightly or wrongly I think the argument of the Greens is that if No2EU hadn't stood then most of those votes would have gone to the Greens. They would also argue that the reason the Greens shouldn't stand down for UKIP is because the Greens are a left alternative.
Don't agree with that, but that's what they would say in reply to Nigel asking why the Greens didn't stand aside for UKIP. They would say that getting a left candidate in against the BNP was a knife edge, that No2EU had no chance and therefore should have stood down for the Greens.
I have to say that I doubt many votes at all would have gone from No2EU to the BNP if they hadn't have stood. They probably took votes off both UKIP (because of their names) and the Greens (because of their politics).
In terms of maths, and presuming hardly any of the votes of No2EU would have gone to the BNP the Greens needed 5000 of the No2EU votes to beat the BNP, only 21% of No2EUs votes.
Now putting forward a political argument as to why No2EU should have stood is one thing. But to argue that the Greens wouldn't have beaten the BNP even if No2EU had stood down is pretty implausible. I just can't believe that more than 21% of the No2EU votes wouldn't have shifted to the Greens given how similar their politics were.
as someone above said NO2EU would have taken votes OFF the BNP and i doubt many of it's supporters would have voted Green so the idea No2EU got Griffin elected is ridiculous. if no2 eu had not stood i think most would not have voted some, would have voted labour, some SLP ( which btw got more votes than NO2EU even in liverpool
) and a few green and BNP but NOT enugh to win the seat fo the greens .. now if NO"EU had campaigned FOR the greesns maybe thats differrent? But the greens show no interest in coalition politics so why should the SP etcSilver_Fox
New Member
Why do you think that No2EU would have taken votes off the BNP? They might have taken votes off UKIP because of their name, but given they were set up a few weeks before the election the idea that with no work on the ground they would have taken votes off the BNP seems ridiculous.
Also I can't see why some No2EU voters wouldn't have voted Green (only 21% of them needed) given that most people would have voted No2EU as a left protest vote rather than a class conscious act which saw through the petty bourgeois middle class character of the Greens or whatever guff it would be phrased as.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Galloway laid in to No2EU at The Respect Conference for stopping The Greens winning a NW seat and allowing Cyclops Fuhrer in.
Don't know if it is true, but could it be coincidence that Tower Hamlets GP have yet to vote on standing against him? Could he just be angling for a repeat of the left solidarity shown towards Salma in Birmingham?
Don't know if it is true, but could it be coincidence that Tower Hamlets GP have yet to vote on standing against him? Could he just be angling for a repeat of the left solidarity shown towards Salma in Birmingham?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
That's not true.
dennisr
the acceptable face
No2EU for all its limitations was a recognition that the greens were not going to win over a layer of disillusioned ex-Labour supporters. And the greens did not win over those disillusioned ex-Labour supporters. Its a generalisation, of course, but the progressive content of the greens vote is not coming from working class ex-Labour supporters. Are folk going to blame No2EU for that?
The personal credentials (and we will have to take your word in it - personally I don't know the fella - but I'd certainly have a lot of time for Tatchell in Oxford) of an individual candidate are pretty much irrelevant, given the resulting actions of the green parties when in positions of power. Repeatedly - locally and nationally - not just once, not just occasionally. The Labour Party still has a few good candidates - but that does not change the nature of the Labour Party. There is a point when one has to put forward a class-based alternative (even more so in the face of the an electoral threat from a populist - one could even say 'left-talking' - but fascist reality BNP) - No2EU was groping towards that no matter how ham-fistedly. The green party was not and is not..
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Evidence from the North West Euro elections please?
How do you explain the Greens coming third in Tory-free working class Manchester? 12,225 votes 13.6% ... are they all yuppies in the muesli belt? (even though they had those votes anyway.) Or are the only working class ex-Labour supporters in Manchester to be found in the 1,690 votes of the SLP or the 942 votes for No2EU?
Where did the Green vote of 3,842 6.02% in Wigan come from? An area they've never stood in local or parliamentary elections before. and that includes the longest held seat by the Labour Party in the country. An area that in the local elections in 1998 returned a clean sweep of 24 out of 24 seats for the Labour Party. Does Makerfield now include a large enclave of middle class bicycle riding white collar environmentalists?
Check the facts before you make such sweeping statements in future.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
That's not what No2EU said when it unveiled its list of candidates in May.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
the fact that an area has been held by Labour for a long-time doesn't mean every there is working-class, does it? Shite 'analysis'
6% could be from anywhere, nice middle-class types, working-class liberals or tories. Makerfield actually has a higher level of home ownership than Wigan in general, and a higher level of degree holders than Wigan in genral, with lower unemployment. So who's making over-general assumptions without checking out their facts?
6% could be from anywhere, nice middle-class types, working-class liberals or tories. Makerfield actually has a higher level of home ownership than Wigan in general, and a higher level of degree holders than Wigan in genral, with lower unemployment. So who's making over-general assumptions without checking out their facts?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
I am quite aware of the social composition of Wigan metro borough and have been there rather more often and more recently than you I suspect ...
Ah so that explains it then ... The Green vote could have come from the Tories ...
Absolutely nothing to do with ex-Labour voters or that little local phenomenon of the Community Action Party. The case is proven. No2EU are right. The Greens everywhere are a bunch of middle class tossers. Life is simple.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
The strongest area for the Greens in Manchester is Chorlton/Withington with a high population of students and academics - they simply don't have the same appeal in areas like Wythenshawe or Levenshulme. This isn't to say that the Greens can't and won't build some support amongst working class communities. But it's not where their present support is strongest.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
I've got all the votes from 2004 and 2009 North West euro elections in detail on a spreadsheet, and will come back to you to show it was highly likely that the Green vote went up to the extent that it did because significant numbers of both former Respect and former Labour voters voted for it in 2009. It's obvious to me living here, but if you want chapter and verse you'll get it.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yes, that's what i said isn't it....
You are happy to tout the 'No2EU helped the BNP get in' because it suits your current 'cheer leading' favorite (that'll change when you fall out...). I question the green parties real 'left' credentials without ignoring the potential progressive vote that goes to that same party. I notice you miss the point about a class-based alternative in your (unsurprisingly...) bile filled reply.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yep, indeed - that's the view I've heard from folk based in those areas.
Silver_Fox
New Member
I can't see how anyone can be certain that 21% or more of the No2EU votes wuoldn't have gone to the Greens. It has to be at least a good possibility, whatever the guesses about what areas votes are coming from.
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