Respect v BNP in Preston

[grogwilton]

There are ways of beating the fash but Respect are not the way to do it. If they had done grass roots work then I might have a change of view but they aint. They are doing the same shit every time and it is isn't working. We have far more bnp councillors than we have Respect councillors. The antifash left needs to put up the sort of candidates and have the sort of policies that have broader appeal. The frightening thing is that the bnp seem to be learning the lesson of having electoral appeal which Respect and some other antifash parties are not doing.

How do you think Lavalette got elected? Your saying lavalette who got elected on doing the things you say is,as you say: 'divisive bullshit equally as divisive and damaging as the BNP?' A little perspective.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

We'd obviously be interested to hear what is on offer. Your comments show that the focus on Birmingham and London is a recognition that Renewal will need to play to their strengths.

I think the Euros in 2009 are absolutely crucial for us Greens, and if Renewal are serious about getting a non aggression pact, then not standing at the Euros would be a very useful starting point. I also wouldn't rule out a more co-operative approach with Respect (SWP) as well, in relation to Lavalette's seat on the same sort of basis.

The threat to Caroline Lucas and Jean Lambert's Green Euro seats was imo where Green/Respect relations went wrong in 2004. You can probably also appreciate having had this split take place, why we were absolutely opposed to having a joint list at that time.

I said we would look to a formal agreement but that does not mean an immediate solution. London will be the problem. The two parties are competing for the same vote to a greater extent and the gap between them is not wide. There will have to be some give and take elsewhere though. A sensible starting point would be for Renewal not to stand in every seat in the Euros and give the Greens a clear run (the South East is obvious), and for the Greens to stop standing paper candidates in every ward in the major northern cities - for example Birmingham and Manchester for starters - and give Respect a clear run at a few wards where the Greens have not done well.

I worry that you say you were opposed to a joint list because of what transpired in the split. Objectively it is not in anyone's interests to have two candidates from the left opposing one another - that's why we proposed an electoral pact to the SWP, despite their dreadful role in formenting the split. However they walked out of those talks - but the door remains open if they have a change of heart.

 

[pingupete]

I said we would look to a formal agreement but that does not mean an immediate solution. London will be the problem. The two parties are competing for the same vote to a greater extent and the gap between them is not wide. There will have to be some give and take elsewhere though. A sensible starting point would be for Renewal not to stand in every seat in the Euros and give the Greens a clear run (the South East is obvious), and for the Greens to stop standing paper candidates in every ward in the major northern cities - for example Birmingham and Manchester for starters - and give Respect a clear run at a few wards where the Greens have not done well.

I worry that you say you were opposed to a joint list because of what transpired in the split. Objectively it is not in anyone's interests to have two candidates from the left opposing one another - that's why we proposed an electoral pact to the SWP, despite their dreadful role in formenting the split. However they walked out of those talks - but the door remains open if they have a change of heart.

You are probably right about elections this year. Our campaign in London and in most other places is far advanced, we are looking to recapture the 3rd Assembly seat we lost in 2004, and possibly a 4th. Sian Berry is being treated as one of the 4 main candidates (see BBC, Guardian and Evening Standard coverage) and it is not yet clear what form any socialist slate will take.

The year before the Euro elections, the regions will certainly be trying to maximise our total number of candidates so people are familiar with the option of voting for us, and we don't just "appear" onto the ballot paper at Euro elections. This means it is certainly local and regional policy to stand full slates in the major cities wherever possible.

I don't mean any disparagement about the split, as I recognise this is painful for all involved. I simply mean that a lot of Greens didn't feel the Respect Coalition was sustainable (a favourite Green word) after being put together very quickly, and we were worried about major splits occurring. Renewal's obvious strengths are Yaqoob and Galloway, and both have a great deal to offer as MPs.

Next year there will be County Council and Euro Elections, and possibly a General Election. In the County elections there will definitely be scope for co-operation, I'm optimistic about what you say on the Euros, but as in 2004, Jean Lambert is the democratically elected no1 on the Green list in London. I think all parties will have to let the dust settle on the London Assembly elections before discussing any detail.

 

[articul8]

SWP spin-doctors at work - Hilariously detached from reality:
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14193

Respect members were contesting the ward for the first time.

Respect used to have a councillor representing the ward - so a little disingenuous

“A number of people who had never even heard of us before went out and voted for us.

Why hadn't they heard of a party which used to represent them on the council>

We had a very good campaign with a lot of enthusiastic volunteers coming to help from across the north west of England.

For the sum total of 84 votes

Last May Respect stood in 48 wards and gained three first places, seven second places, 15 third places, nine fourth places and nine places at fifth or below. The third and fourth places in Leyton and Preston are in the middle of this range.

Pure genius this. Getting 84 votes is a success, honest.

Myself and Respect councillor Michael Lavalette campaigned with some residents of a tower block over their rights. They won’t forget us

Well, It's certainly true that a lot of people who have campaigned alongside the SWP for any period of time won't forget the experience in a hurry

I feel we have done some good for Respect [sic] and for the socialist movement in general.”

Comrades - our 84 votes represent an objective leap forward in the class struggle and herald a new dawn for the proletariat...


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[chilango]

You are probably right about elections this year. Our campaign in London and in most other places is far advanced, we are looking to recapture the 3rd Assembly seat we lost in 2004, and possibly a 4th. Sian Berry is being treated as one of the 4 main candidates (see BBC, Guardian and Evening Standard coverage) and it is not yet clear what form any socialist slate will take.

The year before the Euro elections, the regions will certainly be trying to maximise our total number of candidates so people are familiar with the option of voting for us, and we don't just "appear" onto the ballot paper at Euro elections. This means it is certainly local and regional policy to stand full slates in the major cities wherever possible.

I don't mean any disparagement about the split, as I recognise this is painful for all involved. I simply mean that a lot of Greens didn't feel the Respect Coalition was sustainable (a favourite Green word) after being put together very quickly, and we were worried about major splits occurring. Renewal's obvious strengths are Yaqoob and Galloway, and both have a great deal to offer as MPs.

Next year there will be County Council and Euro Elections, and possibly a General Election. In the County elections there will definitely be scope for co-operation, I'm optimistic about what you say on the Euros, but as in 2004, Jean Lambert is the democratically elected no1 on the Green list in London. I think all parties will have to let the dust settle on the London Assembly elections before discussing any detail.

Putting it a lot more reasonably than I would...

Personally, informal cooperation at a local level is fine, up to the local party I guess, but a formal cooperation at a national level, such as a joint list? I wouldn't agree to.

Not yet anyway.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I live next door ro the ward. I can tell you now that if Hicks wasn't standing there would be no independent socialist appearing from out of the ether. It's a vote for Jerry and when Jerry doesn't stand the politics don't /won't have an independent existence. I like Jerry and he's no fly-by-night parachuted in paper candidate. I hope he gets a good vote, i hope he can put working class concerns on the local agenda as a starting point for wider community activity, but that's it. It's not red lockleaze.

edit to add, that yes, i agree, long term commitment to areas like lockleaze are the key. if that the renewal approach then fair play, it's already got a better aapproach then the swp version. That said...

Launching Respect Renewal has enabled us to re-engage with a group of people from socialist backgrounds who want to build a long term base for an electoral challenge to New Labour in their area, including wh.ite working class communities. Some were active in the Socialist Alliance or earlier socialist campaigns. They are not interested in the short term electoralism that has characterised the SWP.

A good example is Atherton (in Wigan Metro Borough/Greater Manchester but historically Lancashire). This is a poor white working class community that was a centre piece of the battles during the miners strike 1984-85. Steve Hall, a former Trades Council president in that area has recently joined Respect Renewal and has worked with the North Manchester Renewal comrades. Last night they managed to get a good launch meeting underway with Galloway - details and discussion at:
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1757

Atherton is 98% white and overwhelmingly working class

A good start to a necessary campaign.

 

[durruti02]

What happened when?

sorry was not clear .. that there was a dishonest strategy in TH by both wings of respect abd while what you have put forward sounds great it does not reflect how respect acted in TH .. it may well be a very differrent set up in bristol

 

[Fisher_Gate]

sorry was not clear .. that there was a dishonest strategy in TH by both wings of respect abd while what you have put forward sounds great it does not reflect how respect acted in TH .. it may well be a very differrent set up in bristol

Well I still do not understand the point you are making. There were not two wings of Respect in Tower Hamlets before September 2007. There were many mistakes made in the period from 2004-2007, though also some excellent work was done, eg opposition to the sell of council estates led by white working class activist Carole Swords. Some, but not by any means all, of these mistakes were due to Respect following a strategy controlled by the dead hand of the SWP. Now that we have lost the SWP (or to be more accurate, they have lost themselves), Respect is being re-energised, reports from Liam Macuaid, a sceptic in the earlier period. See:
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/wastrels-a-night-with-respect-renewal/
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/blessed-relief-respects-committee-meets/
Liam has a somewhat sarcastic style but I think you can tell where he is coming from.

Did you read the Atherton report by the way - what's your view about what Renewal's doing there?

 

[durruti02]

Well I still do not understand the point you are making. There were not two wings of Respect in Tower Hamlets before September 2007. There were many mistakes made in the period from 2004-2007, though also some excellent work was done, eg opposition to the sell of council estates led by white working class activist Carole Swords. Some, but not by any means all, of these mistakes were due to Respect following a strategy controlled by the dead hand of the SWP. Now that we have lost the SWP (or to be more accurate, they have lost themselves), Respect is being re-energised, reports from Liam Macuaid, a sceptic in the earlier period. See:
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2008/02/21/wastrels-a-night-with-respect-renewal/
http://liammacuaid.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/blessed-relief-respects-committee-meets/
Liam has a somewhat sarcastic style but I think you can tell where he is coming from.

Did you read the Atherton report by the way - what's your view about what Renewal's doing there?

ok fair play .. yes obviously i accept respect has done some good work as you say around housing .. and waht you are talking about now sounds interesting .. BUT my point was / is that, what about the dead hand of galloway? of yacoob? etc surely as deadening as that of callinicos harman rees and co?


i will though read that stuff and get back

 

[grogwilton]

Footsoldiers? You mean the passing through bristol uni poshos who were respect locally plus Jerry and his ex-swp partner?

Odd though, this personal vote was the path to follow when he was in your party.

I actually know one of these. He studied at Bristol UWE which he part funded by working at ASDA on his holidays. I think he now works in admin for the local council. He went to a 'bog-standard' comprehensive.

At what point is it OK for him to get involved in left wing politics?

 

[nwnm]

I actually know one of these. He studied at Bristol UWE which he part funded by working at ASDA on his holidays. I think he now works in admin for the local council. He went to a 'bog-standard' comprehensive.

At what point is it OK for him to get involved in left wing politics?

He has to wear a vest made of holly for 2 years with a big 'please kick me' sign on the back. unless of course he is a true werking class member of the proletariat like erm......Ian Bone - then you just LECTURE at uni instead (his last real job?)