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RESPECT/SWP Policy on Cartoons

maybe that it would do me good
if i believed there were a god
cut in the starry firmament
but as it is that's just a lie
and i'm here eating up the boredom
on an island of cement
give me your ecstasy i'll feel it
open window and i'll steal it
baby like it's heaven sent
 
cockers - you have just convinced me to join Workers Power.

But only so I can move your expulsion for quoting David Gray lyrics, you reactionary bourgeoise pig!
 
I think CR has racist views on migration,he probably thinks i am some kind of a closet racist. So should he be banned for his views or should i? Or should we both be free to express our views?
 
mattkidd12 said:
You should be banned.

Probably a fair few people would be happy if i was. They would much rather talk to people who did not question their motivations or assumptions etc.
Banning me may have been a joke matt but there is a seriuos side to it. The orthodox left is full of people who consider the views of the majority of people on crime, migration etc as beyond contempt. Do you really want them to have the final say on who is banned from free speech?
 
Look - the far left have views on issues such as crime, migration etc which are not widely held. For example, I believe in some things which only a minority of people agree with. Does that mean I hold the majority's views "in contempt"? No. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't mean you have contempt for their views.
 
mattkidd12 said:
Look - the far left have views on issues such as crime, migration etc which are not widely held. For example, I believe in some things which only a minority of people agree with. Does that mean I hold the majority's views "in contempt"? No. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't mean you have contempt for their views.


So as a Socialist matt do you hope to see the views of the majority implemented or opposed by a enlightened elite?

I will give you a clue the answer will tell if you are a Socialist or Liberal?
 
tbaldwin said:
So as a Socialist matt do you hope to see the views of the majority implemented or opposed by a enlightened elite?

I will give you a clue the answer will tell if you are a Socialist or Liberal?

I believe the majority should be in control of the economy, which goes against your private enterprise views. I believe it should hold all political power, which means no monarchy.
 
You don't like David Gray :(

He's had some classic songs.......

So as a Socialist matt do you hope to see the views of the majority implemented or opposed by a enlightened elite?

I will give you a clue the answer will tell if you are a Socialist or Liberal?

Be careful, the consequences of answering this the wrongly could change the whole direction of your life. A heavy responsibility hangs on your shoulders mattkidd.....
 
mattkidd12 said:
I believe the majority should be in control of the economy, which goes against your private enterprise views. I believe it should hold all political power, which means no monarchy.

What private enterprise views ??????
I hate the idea of the monarchy and would love to see the end of it,if that is what the people voted for? I'd give them a vote regularly and info to help them make their minds up. But if they wanted the monarchy in its present form (which i doubt) id not want to oppose my ideas on them,what aout you ?
 
Do you believe in a completely socialised economy, with employees running their workplaces?

There wouldn't be a monarchy, because socialism will come about when people have formed their own organs of government.
 
lewislewis said:
Udo i'm going to ask for a straight answer- would you join a Muslim demonstration against these cartoons even if the women on the demo had to march ten paces behind the men, like they do at the moment?

I can't say on any of the anti-war demo's in Wales or London I have seen huge numbers of Muslim women marching ten paces behind the men - in fact quite often the women seemed more militant than the males.

Personally, I would have some difficulty in attending a demo called by Islamicists.
But for the secular left to turn up on such a demo with their own slogans and placards such as "Freedom of Speech - YES, racist cartoons - NO" would surely be issuing a challenge to the Islamist take on things and would provoke serious political debate and would build a bridge between Muslims who are (rightly) angered and upset by these cartoons and Socialists.

I'm sure Islamist's would hate to see the Secular left turn up and defend Muslims - all the more reason to challenge them on their own turf.

The reason why I think it is important that the Left take up this issue is precisely to undercut the politics of Islamicists who have placed themselves at the head of the movement.

Indeed, I think that in places like East London and Birmingham, if their are Muslims who feel like marching against these cartoons, then Respect should initiate demo's where the question of the cartoons is not framed in terms of Islamicist politics and in that frame of reference, but in terms of a socialist analysis of racism and a demonstration where non-Muslims leftists, trade unionists, and people from other ethnic backgrounds and communities would be represented and speak.

If socialists don't defend Muslims against racism and their is a huge number of Muslim-only demo's then this reinforces the arguments of Islamists and drives Muslims who are absolutely correct to be angered by these cartoons into their arms.

What is important is joint anti-racist action between Muslims and the secular left.

If, you agree with me, that the cartoons were racist and islamophobic, then surely the Left should take up this issue.

When you see figures like Ann Widecomb, a Conservative catholic, appearing on the media standing shoulder to shoulder with Muslims from a reactionary "blasphemy law" perspective and defending them surely you have to demand that the left takes up this issue and shows Muslims that they are prepared to defend Muslims against racism and attacks by right wing newspapers not by a reactionary appeal to religion but from a socialist analysis of racism and it's role in our society and through workers' unity
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Personally, I would have some difficulty in attending a demo called by Islamicists.
But for the secular left to turn up on such a demo with their own slogans and placards such as "Freedom of Speech - YES, racist cartoons - NO" would surely be issuing a challenge to the Islamist take on things and would provoke serious political debate and would build a bridge between Muslims who are (rightly) angered and upset by these cartoons and Socialists.

The reason why I think it is important that the Left take up this issue is precisely to undercut the politics of Islamicists who have placed themselves at the head of the movement.

Indeed, I think that in places like East London and Birmingham, if their are Muslims who feel like marching against these cartoons, then Respect should initiate demo's where the question of the cartoons is not framed in terms of Islamicist politics and in that frame of reference, but in terms of a socialist analysis of racism and a demonstration where non-Muslims leftists, trade unionists, and people from other ethnic backgrounds and communities would be represented and speak.

If socialists don't defend Muslims against racism and their is a huge number of Muslim-only demo's then this reinforces the arguments of Islamists and drives Muslims who are absolutely correct to be angered by these cartoons into their arms.

What is important is joint anti-racist action between Muslims and the secular left.

When you see figures like Ann Widecomb, a Conservative catholic, appearing on the media standing shoulder to shoulder with Muslims from a reactionary "blasphemy law" perspective and defending them surely you have to demand that the left takes up this issue and shows Muslims that they are prepared to defend Muslims against racism and attacks by right wing newspapers not by a reactionary appeal to religion but from a socialist analysis of racism and it's role in our society and through workers' unity

So what you are saying is that the left should call demonstrations against cartoons because they offend some Muslims?

Would you also support a call for a demonstration if similar cartoons offended Christians? Or Jews? Buddhists? Hindus? Sikhs? Satanists?

Could you also make clear whether you support such materials being censored? If so by who? Presumably by the bourgeois state?

Do you support Free Speech? If so do you defend the right of newspapers to publish these cartoons if they wish? If not why not? Is Free Speech to be reserved for those one agrees with alone?

Mike
 
JHE said:
Hmm. If by 'similar cartoons' you mean ones disrespectful of Old Testament prophets, then obviously that is unlikely, since those prophets are also prophets in Islam.

If, on the other hand, you just mean very anti-Jewish cartoons, I'm surprised you think that they are rare in Arab publications.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm
in 1977 my dad used to come home from work with the newspaper. He used to read the daily express. I will never forget, I don't know why it has just stuck in my memoryfrom before I was political, what I saw one day. The cartoon was two Israeli soldiers one saying to the other, "don't those Palestinians look well in our forefathers suits". The Palestinian was wearing a concentration camp uniforms.

So it's not really shocking news to present Zionists as Nazis. In fact I would say it was pretty accurate. Having said that,some Muslims do associate all Jews with the Nazism of the Zionist. And I do think it is important for Socialists to confront this.

on the issue of the cartoons, I would have something to say about black people being presented as lazy illiterate gollywogs, or going back even further, Jews depicted as money grubbing conspiracists trying to take over the world. Even though the Moslems are not a race, it is plain to me that Moslems are politically the new Jews for the fascists etc.
Mr Griffin explains that "the only aim" of the strategy is to help destroy the Cameron-led Tories and "clear the political space for something better ... it would only take 400 individuals who care about saving Britain from partly Tory-created evils such as the EU and the Islamification menace to join those 200 at-risk constituency organisations, and the Conservative party can be killed off."
it is plain to me the cartoons are part of the politically motivated vilification of Moslems being used to justify the 'war on terrorism', and the creation of scape goat for the problems the new Conservatives are creating.
respect, resistanceMP3s
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
So it's not really shocking news to present Zionists as Nazis. In fact I would say it was pretty accurate. Having said that,some Muslims do associate all Jews with the Nazism of the Zionist. And I do think it is important for Socialists to confront this.

/QUOTE]

So you think Zionists are Nazis? If so you must be sick. I dont have time for the Zionists but to say they are the same as the Nazis is just plain daft. I hope your viewss do not represent the views of Respect.

BarryB
 
BarryB said:
ResistanceMP3 said:
So it's not really shocking news to present Zionists as Nazis. In fact I would say it was pretty accurate. Having said that,some Muslims do associate all Jews with the Nazism of the Zionist. And I do think it is important for Socialists to confront this.

/QUOTE]

So you think Zionists are Nazis? If so you must be sick. I dont have time for the Zionists but to say they are the same as the Nazis is just plain daft. I hope your viewss do not represent the views of Respect.

BarryB
well if the daily express compare Israel's instead of the Zionists to Nazis, and Labour MPs who visit Israel compared the Palestinian areas to the Warsaw ghetto, I am not alone in saying there are many similarities. However, "pretty much like" is not the same as exactly like the Nazis. Israel is not a fascist state, but it is certainly an apartheid state based upon racism of the crudest kind with Zionist openly inciting racial hatred.

respect. ResistanceMP3.
 
cockneyrebel said:
You don't think extreme zionists have a similar ideology to fascists? They believe in ethnically cleansing Palestine!

MP3 said Zionists are Nazis. He did not talk about "extreme Zionists". Presumably you do recognise that there is a differnce between "moderate" and "extreme" Zionists?

Does Workers Power think Zionists and Nazis are the same? I very much doubt it.

BarryB
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
BarryB said:
well if the daily express compare Israel's instead of the Zionists to Nazis, and Labour MPs who visit Israel compared the Palestinian areas to the Warsaw ghetto

That was Oona King wasn't it?

I think you're wrong about Zionism though. Maybe I'll go into that another time...
 
neprimerimye said:
So what you are saying is that the left should call demonstrations against cartoons because they offend some Muslims?

.......yes. firstly, we need to show solidarity with muslims because they have shown solidarity to the left- via the anti war movement and by voting respect. do you think this is the correct time to confront the muslim community head on? secondly, this issue has become a simple test as to whose side you are on, are you for a racist cartoon or not? are you on the side of the BNP etc or the muslims


Do you support Free Speech? If so do you defend the right of newspapers to publish these cartoons if they wish? If not why not? Is Free Speech to be reserved for those one agrees with alone?

............Not for racist and fascists.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
BarryB said:
well if the daily express compare Israel's instead of the Zionists to Nazis, and Labour MPs who visit Israel compared the Palestinian areas to the Warsaw ghetto, I am not alone in saying there are many similarities. However, "pretty much like" is not the same as exactly like the Nazis. Israel is not a fascist state, but it is certainly an apartheid state based upon racism of the crudest kind with Zionist openly inciting racial hatred.

respect. ResistanceMP3.

Exactly Israel is not a fascist state. And Zionists are not Nazis.

BarryB
 
>>secondly, this issue has become a simple test as to whose side you are on, are you for a racist cartoon or not? are you on the side of the BNP etc or the muslims>>

I'm sorry, but this is simple-minded codswallop of the worst kind. "You're either with us or against us" - sound familiar? This kind of bizarre binary thinking is the kind of attitude that gets us into these kinds of messes in the first place.

I'm a Buddhist, and at least one of the offensive cartoons took the piss out of Gautama Siddhartha too. You don't see me threatening to butcher people.

Matt

P.S. *Of course* I'm not saying that most Muslims would agree with the nutters who were out on the streets with those placards, but by refusing to criticise said nutters, 'the left' is refusing to engage with reality - and drifting even further away from the position that the majority of people would take - that the offensive cartoon was unecessarily published, but that the reaction to it has been insane, and shouldn't be defended.
 
BarryB said:
MP3 said Zionists are Nazis. He did not talk about "extreme Zionists". Presumably you do recognise that there is a differnce between "moderate" and "extreme" Zionists?

Does Workers Power think Zionists and Nazis are the same? I very much doubt it.

BarryB
don't tell lies. You're the first person to call the left about their debate, and then you distort my post from what I intended. I think my original post was clear enough when I said not all Jews should NOT be painted with the same brush. and I did in the interests of fair discussion say israel is not fascist. however, I do think the express, the two Jewish labour MPs, and myself could be excused for taking some poetic licence in this instance.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
it's not really shocking news to present Zionists as Nazis. In fact I would say it was pretty accurate.

sorry RMP3 you do give the impression that all Zionists are Nazis - Yes, some dreadful atrocities have been carried out in the name of the zionist project. But to argue that all zionists have been Nazis shows a very superficial understanding of the history of zionism.
 
articul8 said:
sorry RMP3 you do give the impression that all Zionists are Nazis - Yes, some dreadful atrocities have been carried out in the name of the zionist project. But to argue that all zionists have been Nazis shows a very superficial understanding of the history of zionism.
which I conceded when I said israel is not a fascist state. so I made it clear in my second post that I did not intend to suggest that all jews are nazis. it was that he continued with this line after I had clarified my comments that I found disingenuous.
however, like him you are only quoting one little bit of a whole post. In the whole post I drew a distinction between Jews and the Zionists, and how people who paint all Jews with the same brush should be confronted. Zionism is the political doctrine of apartheidism, and that is pretty like, not exactly like, the neo-Nazi arguments that peoples should live apart. And lastly I did say rather than being a deadly accurate comparison, I was claiming some poetic licence. Will Barry be writing to the the Jewish Labour Party MP Oona king who made similar comparisons? I am not the first to make this satirical comparison, and considering what has been said about the cartoons I found the attack hypocritical.
sorry mate, that's my opinion on my comments. But hey, who gives a fuck. :D

fraternal greetings comrade
 
Udo Erasmus said:
On a completely different note - while in no way sympathetic to their ideology, I did like the Islamist chants I heard on the news from a demo in London - "GO TO HELL BBC! GO TO HELL UK!". cool. :D

Such savage wit.
 
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