Respect/ SWP in decline?

[TremulousTetra]

Is their a division between members before and after the death of Tony Cliff.

I gathered that the policy of folding membership cards into the hands of people who showed even the vaguest interest started around the early nineties as long as they were'nt 'racist' or 'sexist'.

Talking to people in SWSS groups they don't even try to do educationals' in basic points of theory these days.

I should imagine this would lead to an increase in the 'High Turnover' problem the SWP had/has. And, while people would leave the SWP, may also keep contact on a social basis or by buying the paper.

Without even a basic understanding of Socialist Ideas, their would be very little point in keeping in contact SWP members.

At least much of the older membership would have some perspective of the world outlook of their organisation.

I think you're right, it does seem that a lot less time is spent familiarising people with the ideas of the SWP/socialism. I think there probably is a link between that cause, and the effect you describe.

Fraternal greetings, ResistanceMP3.

 

[Random]

Careful, RMP3, you're starting to sound like an 'apostate'

 

[Groucho]

Are you sure you didn't read this in the Weekly Worker article?

I still have the mag. I am sure.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I agree with you that the strategy of the SWP could go either way. Though I have not been involved for a couple of years, to me the only effect of Respect upon the SWP so far seems to have been deleterious and corrosive. Can't say I foresaw this, in fact quite the opposite, I was one of the more vociferous campaigners for a more outward looking SWP.

But as you say, it is hard to have an honest discussion on the topic of the SWP.

Fraternal greetings, ResistanceMP3

Do you mean in side the SWP or on here? I am interested in what you say about RESPECT having a deleterious and corrosive effect on the SWP. Several of us on here who at one time thought that for what ever reason the SWP was the right place to be at the time view the development of RESPECT as a virtual death blow any class politics that the SWP had.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Careful, RMP3, you're starting to sound like an 'apostate'

over the 20 years i've always had my criticisms of the SWp, the fact that I don't express them on here speaks more about the sectarianism on here that Nigel spoke about, than my 'change' of view.

fraternal greetings, resistanceMP3.

PS. I don't think we'll hear much more from bolsh

 

[butchersapron]

What a pointlessly odd thing to stick on the end of your post, considering that my single post onn this thread was asking Matt to direct me to previous years editions of the AF's "is this the end of the SWP" articles.

 

[charlie mowbray]

And of course, he bloody well couldn't!

 

[TremulousTetra]

Do you mean in side the SWP or on here? I am interested in what you say about RESPECT having a deleterious and corrosive effect on the SWP. Several of us on here who at one time thought that for what ever reason the SWP was the right place to be at the time view the development of RESPECT as a virtual death blow any class politics that the SWP had.

I haven't been in active participation in the SWp for a couple of years [3or4]. And on the second part, I cant spot a question, and I don't know I altogether agree with your perspective.

Fraternal greetings, resistance MP3

 

[Streathamite]

I say Respect are growing and expanding - You say oh no the're not!
I say The SWP have been experiencing a slight upward turn in recruitment lately - you say oh they aren't
I say Sales of SW have turned upwards lately - you say oh no they haven't and SW is crap. And on and on...

It's a 'debate' that has been had over and over and is meaningless.

can you (or Nigel i) put up stats in a link to settle it one way or another?

 

[Ratan]

I have a copy of Militant International Review from the late 1980s where they argue in some detail for the enabling act and the Parliamentary road backed up by supportive action from workers. So, no it is not a misrepresentation.

As for derailing this fine thread

I say Respect are growing and expanding - You say oh no the're not!
I say The SWP have been experiencing a slight upward turn in recruitment lately - you say oh they aren't
I say Sales of SW have turned upwards lately - you say oh no they haven't and SW is crap. And on and on...

It's a 'debate' that has been had over and over and is meaningless.

That's sounds one of those deep south happy clappy hymns.
I SAY ALLIUIA,I SAY PRISE THE LORD!!.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I haven't been in active participation in the SWp for a couple of years [3or4]. And on the second part, I cant spot a question, and I don't know I altogether agree with your perspective.

Fraternal greetings, resistance MP3

it was this bit-

But as you say, it is hard to have an honest discussion on the topic of the SWP

I was interested in. Why is it hard to do this ?

There wasn't a question in the second part , it was a comment and again if you don't agree you can always put your view forward. Why has RESPECT has had a corrosive affect on the SWP?

 

[TremulousTetra]

it was this bit- I was interested in. Why is it hard to do this ?

it is a good job I didn't answer this then,

Originally Posted by Chuck Wilson
Do you mean in side the SWP or on here? I am interested in what you say about RESPECT having a deleterious and corrosive effect on the SWP. Several of us on here who at one time thought that for what ever reason the SWP was the right place to be at the time view the development of RESPECT as a virtual death blow any class politics that the SWP had.

because I wouldn't have answered anything to do with why I find it so difficult to have an honest debate on here.

I'm sure you must be familiar with the phenomena that you have a discussion with somebody on here who has such a completely different perspective on an incident or topic that you find it hard to believe they can hold such a view. Even though I can honestly say I've never attempted to be dishonest on here, I am constantly accused of being dishonest, for the above reason I suppose. I suppose in short what I meant was, one person's truth can so easily be another person's lie,and so it is very difficult to have an honest and open discussion. The discussions produce a lot of heat but very little light in my experience. I could write the most eloquent and factual arguments in the world, I'm sure I would never convince many people on here to a different point of view. So just for those reasons it is difficult to have an honest and open debate, but added to that must be the sectarianism.

You of all people must be familiar with the fact that the though the SWP was intended to be an "isolationist political sect" in the 1980s, as an organisation it was never sectarian towards the rest of the left. What I mean is that though individual members of the SWP may have been hostile to other members of groups on the left, the SWP always argued as an organisation more anarchists, more reformist, more socialists,was a good thing for the left and for the SWP. We never viewed other organisation on the left as the enemy, learning well from the mistake of the KPD imho, a lesson that was rammed home time and time again during my involvement with the SWP.

and so I think the attitude displayed by some, that "the SWP is the enemy of the left" and that a "smaller SWP would be a good thing for the left", inhibits honest discussion, don't you?

There wasn't a question in the second part , it was a comment and again if you don't agree you can always put your view forward.

that's what I meant, I wasn't sure how you wanted me to respond to your comment. My view on your view is undermined by the fact I am only familiar with what you have said on here. And if I have interpreted your comments correctly over the time I have been on here, I think I would have disagreed with you even when you were in the SWP. I think we have a different interpretation of "class politics". From my reading of your comments I think you view the personal as political much more than I do. That's why I think you feel much more comfortable where you are now. However I must say I do have Respect for you, and for where you are now. This is not mock fraternalism, or me just being sickly nice as some people suggest, it is a logical conclusion of what I said above about the SWP position in the 1980s about the rest of the left. Anyone being lost from the left, a socialist, a reformist, or an anarchist, is deleterious to the hole left in my view. And the fact you have left the SWP, but joined a another organisation is better than what many have done. I would rather you have done that, than left the SWP and dropped out of activity altogether comrade.

Why has RESPECT has had a corrosive affect on the SWP?

the whole truth is always contradictory, there are pros and cons as to whether respect has had a deleterious and corrosive effect upon the SWP. The reason why I would say respect as had a deleterious and corrosive affect upon the SWP is because there are more cons than pros AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. I do not think there is anybody in the SWP who could seriously argue against this viewpoint, if there is I would be interested their contribution to this thread. (By the way, does anybody know whether the recent ISJ article on Respect is available on the Web?)


fraternal greetings, resistanceMP3

 

[Geoff Collier]

Are you sure you didn't read this in the Weekly Worker article?

I'm new to this kind of forum and I can't face trawling through lots of posts. However, I believe there's some doubt that the Miltant used to claim to be for a parliamentary road to socialism - is that right?

Anybody got Militant international Review edition of June 82 for example? That was very clear about it

 

[levien]

Response to Mr Irritable

This is actually quite interesting but if you disentangle the factual points from the hopes and aspirations we get the following...

Facts:

1) SWP party activity has become less of a priority and has "taken a hit".
2) The SWP has also taken a "hit" in membership terms.
3) Many of the newer members it does have are more concerned with the various fronts and are more tenuously linked to the actual party than the older cadre.
4) SWSS groups have shrunk.

Hopes/plans/aspirations/predictions:

1) These short term losses are a necessary consequence of a longer term plan for growth. It will pay off in the end.
2) The older more conservative cadre will be able to hold together party activity while the newer people are off doing their various things.
3) These smaller SWSS groups might result in a more efficient transmission belt to the SWP.

Now these latter points may or may not turn out to be true. I'd tend to be a bit more sceptical than you about it all. Shrinking groups, more absorbed in mass work, do not find it easier to recruit. And I have some experience of that - I was in the English SP when it was in roughly that situation. It seems to me that the SWP are to some extent chasing a dream - like someone at a casino table throwing more and more chips away hoping that the big pay off will arive, recuperating the nights losses.

I'm going to try and take the points 1 by 1 even if that makes this a tad difficult to read (sorry Nigel)
Fact
1) Yes but this has been a concious efffort to break a mode of opperation unsuitable to the current period. (ie an orientation on those who already define as socialist)

2) I honestly don't think the current tactics have produced a "hit" as such, I was merely going with the flow of the thread. So two points on this.
a) Any new turn will mean a minority of members who are less confident about it are less active until obvious returns are reaped.
b) If there has been a hit/lull in recruitment the fact that we are only making this turn now rather then 2/3 years ago is the issue.

3) Thats a twisting of my words and I think you know it. Branch building as an activity is cadre(ised) into people slower at present; the bent stick of the current turn effects new members more then old. That doesn't mean that people are more tenuously connected to the party. New members tend to sell more papers to friends in campaigns/respect then older comrades who do regular sales. Arguably that is a development in our organic connection to the class/social movements then we've previously had.

4) Smaller soft SWSS membership is simply because that role is now provided by Student Respect (organised Left Activist Group. SWSS is now the SWP on Campus. In the context of Manchester where SWSS was probably the most successful at the old model it is a hit for SWSS but a growth for the SWP. In areas were SWSS was in essense just SWP anyway there was (unsuprisingly) no issue. Student Respect is bigger btw then SWSS ever was.

Hopes
1) were this is the case then yes.
2) If that were the case I'd be worried. I'd never allow there to be such a divide or leave old "conservative" cadre in control of a branch where possible. That might work in the SP but would kill the dynamic of a SWP branch.
3)As respect can now do the Troops out now/palestine etc meetings SWSS can do Maxism and Philosophy, Rosa Luxenburg type of hard marxist meetings. I'd say thats a good thing as no other fuckers doing them on campuses.

 

[BarryB]

I'm new to this kind of forum and I can't face trawling through lots of posts. However, I believe there's some doubt that the Miltant used to claim to be for a parliamentary road to socialism - is that right?

Anybody got Militant international Review edition of June 82 for example? That was very clear about it

Welcome to the forum Geoff.

I have that very issue in front of me. An article by Peter Taaffe titled 'Marxism and the State' said "... Militant...have demanded that a Labour Government introduce enabling legislation into the House of Commons to nationalise the 200 monopolies, with minimum compensation on the basis of proven need...". So that sounds like a belief in the Parliamentary road to socialism. However the article goes on to say "Of course the labour movement are not pacifists. We would be prepared to take up arms in defence of the right to strike, freedom of assembly, and the right to vote, if they were ever challenged by the ruling class". But then the article goes on to say "It is precisely the leaders of the right-wing who virulently denounce Militant and its supporters who stand in the way of the peaceful transformation of society".

What do these quotes mean? To me it means that as Militant were working in the Labour Party they were very careful not to openly call for a revolutionary road to socialism in Britain. Sounds sensible to me.

BarryB

 

[Fullyplumped]

Anybody got Militant international Review edition of June 82 for example? That was very clear about it

And the deeply sad thing was, somebody did!

 

[BarryB]

And the deeply sad thing was, somebody did!

Even sadder that ive got a full set of Militant international Review!

BarryB

 

[john malcolm]

Even sadder that ive got a full set of Militant international Review!

Barry might be pleased to hear that Unison's Convenor in the northern region has left the SWP and following a decent period od penance is waiting to sign up to new labour.

 

[mutley]

Even sadder that ive got a full set of Militant international Review!

Barry might be pleased to hear that Unison's Convenor in the northern region has left the SWP and following a decent period od penance is waiting to sign up to new labour.

Who would that be?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

the whole truth is always contradictory, there are pros and cons as to whether respect has had a deleterious and corrosive effect upon the SWP. The reason why I would say respect as had a deleterious and corrosive affect upon the SWP is because there are more cons than pros AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. I do not think there is anybody in the SWP who could seriously argue against this viewpoint, if there is I would be interested their contribution to this thread. (By the way, does anybody know whether the recent ISJ article on Respect is available on the Web?)

fraternal greetings, resistanceMP3

The recent ISJ article is available on the web - but you really need to elaborate these points above

 

[treelover]

yeah, who was/is it, name names, so we can google him land have a larf at his past 'revolutionary' pronouncements,etc

Barry might be pleased to hear that Unison's Convenor in the northern region has left the SWP and following a decent period od penance is waiting to sign up to new labour.

 

[darren redparty]

Talk about scraping the barrel
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=936
with all that could be on their site what is this about?

 

[Pilgrim]

Talk about scraping the barrel
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=936
with all that could be on their site what is this about?

Oh dear...

There is something truly desperate about that.

 

[mk12]

 

[TremulousTetra]

The recent ISJ article is available on the web - but you really need to elaborate these points above

well perhaps you could elaborate why you think there are more pros than cons, if that is the case. I don't know whether I am academically gifted enough to properly explain why I think the SWP membership has fallen, instead of risen from its 10,000 high. The real story as far as I'm concerned goes right back to the poll tax riots. Having said that, I will be very surprised to read that John Rees believes that the SWP has done any other than make big sacrifices to the Socialist Alliance and respect United front, that will in the long-term benefit the whole of the left. (could you give a link to the article please)


frats rmp3

PS. Seeing as though Chuck was so interested in this topic, I'm surprised he hasn't come back yet.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Is it time for the annual SWP Split Imminent thread?

 

[mutley]

Even sadder that ive got a full set of Militant international Review!

Barry might be pleased to hear that Unison's Convenor in the northern region has left the SWP and following a decent period od penance is waiting to sign up to new labour.

Hello!! Again I ask, who is this person??

 

[john malcolm]

Unison regional covenor is Clare Williams. This is an elected post.

 

[mk12]

Is it time for the annual SWP Split Imminent thread?

Mmm, the conference is in January. So you'll have a couple of weeks.

 

[rebel warrior]

Respect ISJ article link:

http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=137&issue=108