Respect Party - whats wrong with it?

[poster342002]

If the popular resistance in Iraq and the global anti-war movement win every progressive movement around the globe will be strengthened and it could light a fire that will toppled the apartheid regime in jerusalem, sweep away mubarak and the house of saud

And with the current state of poltiics in the mid-east, only succeed in the bringing about of an ultra-reactionary sharia caliphate regime. Do you view that as a desirable outcome and a victory for progressive politics?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

To be fair, this problem afflicts the left as a whole, I find. I hear a lot of "fight for this!", "put pressure on union leaders to do that!", "such and such NOW!" and so on - but precious little on how this can be achieved in face of the establishment simply ignoring such campaigns.

But, to be fair, that's because it's difficult. Very difficult.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And with the current state of poltiics in the mid-east, only succeed in the bringing about of an ultra-reactionary sharia caliphate regime. Do you view that as a desirable outcome and a victory for progressive politics?

Do you have a preferred and likely alternative in mind?

Incidentally, it probably won't be a caliphate, will it? Though it will probably be Islamic and will very likely be unpleasant to women.

 

[poster342002]

Red Leicester, whatever our political disagreements, good name!

Albeit a bit cheesy.

 

[Roadkill]

My problem with Respect is that a socialist partly supposedly committed to secularism, women's and gay rights and so on has allied itself with a bunch of religious zealots who are opposed to all of them.

I'm ex-SWP, and I don't think they're any better or worse than any other Trot partly - just bigger, more visible and therefore more likely to draw flak from other groups. I'm not about to join in the usual swappie-bashing, but I'd never vote for Respect.

 

[poster342002]

Do you have a preferred and likely alternative in mind?

Incidentally, it probably won't be a caliphate, will it? Though it will probably be Islamic and will very likely be unpleasant to women.

My preffered (but very unlikely) alternative would be a secular, socialist mid-east run by and for it's working classes. The current Islamist alternative isn't any better (and would probably be even worse) than the currently existing regimes in the area.

I really don't subscribe to t he "Politcal Islam's the only opposition in town, so it'll do" schoool of thought. It's not an option for anyone with progressive politics, imo.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The point is, if it's not on offer than there's an element of self-indulgence in saying "I want this and I won't see any difference between the other alternatives".

I think there's a choice to be made between the Occupation and its defeat. I think it needs to be made despite the likelihood that the regime that replaces the US will be one I would dislike very much. Indeed, isn't that normal for the period following the defeat of imperialism?

 

[poster342002]

The point is, if it's not on offer than there's an element of self-indulgence in saying "I want this and I won't see any difference between the other alternatives".

I think there's a choice to be made between the Occupation and its defeat. I think it needs to be made despite the likelihood that the regime that replaces the US will be one I would dislike very much. Indeed, isn't that normal for the period following the defeat of imperialism?

I really find it hard to root for any "side" in the current scenario, tbh. I think the world is going to enter an even shittier period of history nomatter who "wins" the spoils. I mean, imperialsism was "defeated" in Germany at the end of WW1 - and look what arose from the ashes of that. Not good.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Then all that's left to you is sitting on your hands. Which is a choice, but I think other people are entitled to say they want imperialism to be defeated.

 

[poster342002]

Then all that's left to you is sitting on your hands. Which is a choice, but I think other people are entitled to say they want imperialism to be defeated.

They are, indeed, entitled to say that. I am also entitled to say that what they're hoping imperialisim to be defeated by could very likely turn out to be even worse.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Obviously, I'm from Leicester - which is in the East Midlands. (See my earlier post about Respect in the East Midlands).



Quite a bit - but I don't find the need to brag.


My point is that saying that nothing would have happened around Palestine (or any other issue?) in the entire North West of England "without Respect and the SWP" is clearly delusional.

If you suffer from these delusions I really think you should seek help.

I admire your willingness to vote against the "general line" at SWP conferences - from what I've heard (I've never been a member) that's not an easy thing to do. But perhaps you should join another group. Personally, I'm a member of Workers Power.

Well, you give me an example of any progressive event around anything happening in the North West, ESPECIALLY around Palestine and I will eat my hat. But I know for a fact there's none.

btw - if I felt as though there were no debates to be had around individual SWP or Respect policies I would have them - and do, lots of the time. However - gimme an example of Respect or SWP policy being debated on this board without someone jumping to the rabid conclusion that whatever issue was being debated showed, hands down, how corrupt and unworkable Respect or the SWP are as insitutions then I'll again be very impressed.

The issue; none of the criticisms of Respect or the SWP have either the best interests of those two organisations in mind, nor the best interests of the ongoing left movements in their minds - they have a specifically anti-Respect and anti-SWP agenda which is nothing but damaging and isn't worth the time of day debating.

 

[treelover]

I give up, to me Greenmans excellent summary said it all, and i do wonder how a
board which has its roots in direct action, non -hierarchical political activity is now home to one of the largest, possibly the largest SWP cadre on the net,

weird...

 

[poster342002]

i do wonder how a
board which has its roots in direct action, non -hierarchical political activity is now home to one of the largest, possibly the largest SWP cadre on the net,

A great deal of non-SWP political posters left during The Great Schism.

 

[Das Uberdog]

The only reason I ever come on this site is to defend the SWP and Respect from all the vitriol.

You beckoned us in.

 

[mk12]

The only reason I ever come on this site is to defend the SWP and Respect from all the vitriol.

Shouldn't you be defending the "muslim community"?

 

[poster342002]

The only reason I ever come on this site is to defend the SWP and Respect from all the vitriol.

You heroic lone-crusader, you!!!

 

[dennisr]

You beckoned us in.

They did indeed - and you seem to have done your best to prove they have a point...

You, personally, seem to to be doing more damage to the reputation of your organisation than good.

If I was you, I'd would take the advice the Cockney fella above kindly offered earlier

 

[Das Uberdog]

I think that anybody who's actually been looking at the content of the criticisms levelled towards SWP/Respect analytically doesn't need a coherant or a polite response from someone in support of those organisations to see what a huge amount of effort and time is wasted by those on the left criticising other leftists - all they need is some response at all.

 

[bruise]

If I was you, I'd would take the advice the Cockney fella above kindly offered earlier

i offered the same advice on that other thread - where Das was even more of an idiot than on this one (if you can believe it)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

btw - if I felt as though there were no debates to be had around individual SWP or Respect policies I would have them - and do, lots of the time. However - gimme an example of Respect or SWP policy being debated on this board without someone jumping to the rabid conclusion that whatever issue was being debated showed, hands down, how corrupt and unworkable Respect or the SWP are as insitutions then I'll again be very impressed.

The issue; none of the criticisms of Respect or the SWP have either the best interests of those two organisations in mind, nor the best interests of the ongoing left movements in their minds - they have a specifically anti-Respect and anti-SWP agenda which is nothing but damaging and isn't worth the time of day debating.

The fact that you don't seem to be able to see the contradiction between these two paragraphs doesn't bode well for your claim to be up for a genuine discussion. What you have just said is that while there may be some individual policy issues that need looking at, the overall strategy and practice of both the SWP and Respect are off limits. It's an approach that not only precludes a genuinely open discussion, it also doesn't really sit very well with the injunction to question everything; an injunction which I would hope you are familiar with.

The bottom line is that there are a significant number of people (including one time loyal members) who would not only question your appreciation that nothing worthwhile is being done without the SWP, but also see the both the SWP and Respect as obstacles, albeit minor ones, to working class self organisation. Putting your virtual fingers in your ears and saying you don't want to hear it comes across as all a bit childish.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Das Uberdog]

Well, they've failed to give me examples of anything worthwhile being done without us.

Plus, my point wasn't that overrall SWP or Respect strategy was 'off limits' - just that there's no point debating the finer details of electoral or general strategy with people who have no good wishes towards anything which Respect, the SWP or any of the campaigns we're involved within.

I do not support the Socialist Party. I believe that their overrall strategy is shite, and I don't think they'll ever get anywere. I still support the fact that they've got two councillors elected in Coventry under the name of the Socialist Party, and I still support the fact that we are, at the end of the day, fighting towards the same goal. Therefore, I do not take every opportunity available to publically attack the Socialist Party for whichever sectarian or inter-policy related issue comes to mind. That's where the difference lies.

 

[dennisr]

debating the finer details of electoral or general strategy

the Socialist Party. I believe that their overrall strategy is shite, and I don't think they'll ever get anywere.

thanks for the insight (you don't need me to lend you the rope do you?)

 

[Das Uberdog]

It seems you have stupendously failed to analyse a single word of my post - with hilarious consequences!

 

[dennisr]

It seems you have stupendously failed to analyse a single word of my post - with hilarious consequences!

are you a public schoolboy?

just wondered like (got this vision of a ranty wee fella with those wee round specs in short trousers, blazer, school tie and cap)

 

[treelover]

heres a non -biased (by a respect member) of the recent 'organising for fighting unions' event by Respect/SWP.

Other attendees offer more negative opinions. Here’s blogger Liam MacUaid, himself a Respect member:

‘It’s been quite a while since stage management and choreography of this standard has been seen at an audience of anti-bureaucratic, class struggle trade union militants.

‘At a guess there were about 800 people at the event. Roughly half were SWP members. Maybe another 20% were from other left organisations.

‘When I left at half four there had been nothing that vaguely resembled a debate on how you organise in the unions or why or how you can organise a political alternative to new Labour.

‘Instead we got an interminable series of platform speakers and when they had spoken for as long as they wanted a few people from the floor were given three whole minutes, though this could be extended if you were particularly rambling and off the point …

‘It was a dismal day. The majority of the audience was not in the first flush of youth. There were no significant new forces, bureaucrats or Labour Party members engaged with the project.

‘While there was lots of rhetoric about how we need to organise at a grassroots level there was no opportunity to do much other than sit on your arse listening to the great and the good with the occasional on message speaker reassuring us that things are pretty good in their patch. If you wanted a template of how not to organise fighting unions this was it.’

http://davespartblog.blogspot.com/

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Well, they've failed to give me examples of anything worthwhile being done without us.

Plus, my point wasn't that overrall SWP or Respect strategy was 'off limits' - just that there's no point debating the finer details of electoral or general strategy with people who have no good wishes towards anything which Respect, the SWP or any of the campaigns we're involved within.

I do not support the Socialist Party. I believe that their overrall strategy is shite, and I don't think they'll ever get anywere. I still support the fact that they've got two councillors elected in Coventry under the name of the Socialist Party, and I still support the fact that we are, at the end of the day, fighting towards the same goal. Therefore, I do not take every opportunity available to publically attack the Socialist Party for whichever sectarian or inter-policy related issue comes to mind. That's where the difference lies.

Firstly, if you want to see examples of worthwhile actvity being taken without the input of the SWP then I suggest you go and spend a little time e-searching for community based acivity; from the south coast town of Worthing up to the Orkneys (and beyond in Shetland for all I know) there are people getting on with the business of making a real difference and doing it without the SWP. I suspect what you mean is that actvity without the SWP's involvement or at least public seal of approval is not worthwhile, but feel free to prove me wrong.

Secondly, why should people who see the SWP as a minor obstacle to working class self organisation have any good wishes for the organisation? Indeed for once loyal, now critical ex-members, with their experience from the inside to draw on, such good wishes would be a bit disengenuous surely? Given this your second para is just a rehash of your previous attempt to strictly limit the terms of any debate to a focus on matters of individual policy.

Meanwhile the notion of being disengenuous brings me onto my last point. If you believe that the SP's "overrall strategy is shite, and...don't think they'll ever get anywere" (and that does come across as heartfelt) then why give them any support; afterall they are just diverting resources (much needed time, effort, skills, people and money) from what you state is your ultimate goal. The time and space taken up with their going nowhere "shite" is time and space denied to you.

Try being simultaneously a bit more open minded and honest - Louis MacNeice

 

[dennisr]

Try being simultaneously a bit more open minded and honest

Uberdog - like a ginger beer?

 

[cockneyrebel]

and isn't worth the time of day debating.

So why are you wasting post after post doing exactly that. Why bother? Either do something that you see as productive politically or try and enjoy life. Go clubbing, have a beer, go for a walk, meet up with your other half, whatever you enjoy doing. But heading banging posts on here which come across as hysterical are totally pointless. You're just winding yourself up and making RESPECT look bad.

I have no time for RESPECT but I have to say that the political critiques on U75 have plumetted in the last two years which is why I don't come on here much. I'd actually agree that a lot of the stuff on here aimed at RESPECT is fairly mindless. A couple of years ago RESPECT would have been ripped apart by decent poltiical critique but the posters who did that have nearly all left the boards. But I can't be bothered to put up a political critique of RESPECT here (opportunism, broad leftism, undemocratic, reformist etc etc) because as said it would be pointless.

Good posts by Louis by the way.

 

[chilango]

Chilango, many of the radical developments in Latin America can only take place because the US is bogged down in Iraq and the Middle East.

I doubt this.

The US proxy forces are as egaged as ever (see the rigging of the Mexican election for example)

Unlike Chilango who refuses to support people resisting military occupation, did you know that according to recent surveys, 2 out of 3 Iraqis support military attacks on coalition forces and every single survey has shown the majority want British and American troops out.

There is a difference between "military attcks on coalition forces" and nasty sectarian violence and beheading journalists...

Hugo Chavez has become a hero in the Middle East

Though neither saddam or bin laden are heroes here in latin america....

To Chilango: What impact have the Zapatistas had on the mass movements going on at the moment, for the most part Marcos has stood on the sidelines

Clearly you don`t know much then.

The EZLN mobilized immediately the insurrection in Atenco started. Marcos himself leading protests in the town.

The EZLN have enaged in support actions for the commune in Oaxaca and called a general strike for Monday.

Marcos is travelling the country with "la otra" lending whatever support he can to struggles across Mexico and across the border in the US.

 

[chilango]

Cockney and others:

Perhaps pointing out that Respects view that no worthwhile struggle exists that they didn`t initiate doesn`t consititute a rigourous leninist critique.

whatever.

Its a simple point.