Respect Party - whats wrong with it?

[mutley]

How about this for Hubris

It was in the Guardians CIF and was response to an article by John McDonnell

btw, DU, did you used to be Moto?, you are as unpleasant and deluded as him.
oh, and i'm far from any lefty purist, i just don't like hijackers.

So? It's a comment from one single Respect supporter, and totally unreflective of the approach Respect have adopted nationally, which was to give McDonnell a platform at the trade union conference.

And like I said above, the minute we put effort into opposing the Welfare reform bill you'll be whinging about 'hijackers'.

 

[Nigel]

How would you campaign against the cost of private accommodation though? I mean I'd certainly like to see somebody do it, I feel very strongly about the issue (and its complete absence from the purview of the media). But you can't just pluck a campaign out of nothing.

Re-introduce fair rent scheme that was abolished in the mid eighties(1986) I think.
Expose trusts, charities, housing associations relationships with private landlords and its relationship to the care industry, which is used as a drip-drip policy to undermine the rights of tennents; especially new ones. Fight for a policy to re-establish the housing act with the Rent Act(I think), fight for people and put a programme together that wold put people who are in housing associations to have the same rights as concil tennents.

JUST A FEW SUGGESTIONS!!!!

 

[Red Leicester]

the most active, vibrant and progressive organisation in the country

Respect and SWP members organise every single campaign worth having in this country at the moment. ... None of these would be the same (and in the case of Stop the War, even existant) without the SWP and Respect.

This is arrogant nonsense typical of the self-delusional SWP.

It may be true for some cities but it is certainly not true of Leicester.

Apart from short visits by Yvonne Ridley at election times Respect has no profile in the city.

Ridley, a journalist and a convert to Islam who sends her child to a private school, was originally recommended as Respect candidate for Leicester South by George Galloway because it was important to have a "media savvy" candidate. She was elected in preference to a local anti-cuts campaigner. One of Galloway's concerns at the "selection meeting" was to find a "Christian cleric" to nominate her.

Yes, Galloway was at the "Leicester South Respect selection meeting" - along with other notable "locals" such as John Rees and Lindsey German! In fact, there was only one resident of Leicester South at the "selection meeting" and he voted for the local anti-cuts campaigner!

Despite having picked up thousands of votes in elections in Leicester Respect is incapable of mobilising significant numbers (or, indeed, sometimes anybody) for demonstrations in the city.

And it seems that Leicester is not the only city in the East Midlands to have no Respect activity. Clicking here will take you to the "East Midlands" page on the Respect website, where the last entry was posted on 01/05/2005! Not exactly "vibrant", comrades!

 

[jackdoor]

Nationally we had an extremely successful trade union conference last saturday, with 900 delegates, far larger than the CNWP or RMT attempts at the same thing. No discussion of that event on Urban at all, cos it was very successful - it sure would have featured if it hadn't been.


See the Blog below for some objective reports on the
respect Trade Union Ra Ra Rally sorry conference
http://davespartblog.blogspot.com/

 

[Das Uberdog]

No, my only internet alias has ever been Das Uberdog. And seriously, I'm not going to be apologetic for being rude when - if you'll look at pretty much every other post I've made on this forum, whenever I've spent energy upon being congenial towards tossers on this website I've only ever had it spat back in my face.

btw I'm not saying 'I'm Great' - simply pointing out what anyone else who's been heavily involved in pretty much every large campaign up 'till today will tell you, which is that they simply wouldn't happen to the same extent without Respect or the SWP. This isn't an egotistical thing, if anything it's paratistical or something - whatever.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Re-introduce fair rent scheme that was abolished in the mid eighties(1986) I think.
Expose trusts, charities, housing associations relationships with private landlords and its relationship to the care industry, which is used as a drip-drip policy to undermine the rights of tennents; especially new ones. Fight for a policy to re-establish the housing act with the Rent Act(I think), fight for people and put a programme together that wold put people who are in housing associations to have the same rights as concil tennents.

JUST A FEW SUGGESTIONS!!!!

They're all suggestions, but they're all rhetorical. Saying "fight for" doesn't mean a lot unless you can say how you're going to do it.

 

[chilango]

btw I'm not saying 'I'm Great' - simply pointing out what anyone else who's been heavily involved in pretty much every large campaign up 'till today will tell you, which is that they simply wouldn't happen to the same extent without Respect or the SWP. This isn't an egotistical thing, if anything it's paratistical or something - whatever.

Hmm.

There is a subtle but important difference between "large campaign" and "campaign worth having".

Also, I`ve been involed with many a campaign not initiated by the SWP - that you come along later is true, but to claim they wouldn`t exist without you is simply untrue.

Do you really think that campaigns like Stop Tuition Fees, Stop the War and Palestinian Solidarity would not exist without you?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Pretty much every other leftist organisation with the resources to perpetuate a large campaign has been up for ditching the Stop the War campaign for years now. Can you not remember all that bullshit talk about 'demonstration fatigue'? The SP, CPGB and now it's many different sub-sects have been railing against STW for ages. Yeah, if the SWP hadn't been involved in Stop the War it would either be incredibly small or perhaps even cease to exist. Certainly, all of the campaigning I know in the North West would not have been organised, directed or acted upon were it not for the Perston branch of the SWP.

Tuition Fees? Seriously man, if Respect hadn't got 70 delegates to NUS conference, and those delegates hadn't argued tooth and nail for the Student Fees demonstration, there would be no campaigning wahtsoever! At most, what we'd have would be a few New Labour Party hopefuls publically appealing to MP's to save their scrawny, careerist hides.

Palestine Solidarity? Well, how many other left-wing organisations actually supported the Palestinean Resistance over the Labenon war? And again, I know for a fact nothing would have happened in the North West without Respect and the SWP.

 

[chilango]

Pretty much every other leftist organisation with the resources to perpetuate a large campaign has been up for ditching the Stop the War campaign for years now. Can you not remember all that bullshit talk about 'demonstration fatigue'? The SP, CPGB and now it's many different sub-sects have been railing against STW for ages. Yeah, if the SWP hadn't been involved in Stop the War it would either be incredibly small or perhaps even cease to exist. Certainly, all of the campaigning I know in the North West would not have been organised, directed or acted upon were it not for the Perston branch of the SWP.

Tuition Fees? Seriously man, if Respect hadn't got 70 delegates to NUS conference, and those delegates hadn't argued tooth and nail for the Student Fees demonstration, there would be no campaigning wahtsoever! At most, what we'd have would be a few New Labour Party hopefuls publically appealing to MP's to save their scrawny, careerist hides.

Palestine Solidarity? Well, how many other left-wing organisations actually supported the Palestinean Resistance over the Labenon war? And again, I know for a fact nothing would have happened in the North West without Respect and the SWP.

Hmmm

Palestine Solidarity existed long before Respect.

Antituition fees existed long before Respect.

Maybe STW wouldve given up, but who can blame them.

There is a difference between prolonging campaigns and claiming they wouldnt exist without you.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Anti-Tuition fees did not exist in any considerable form. Palestinean Solidarity would be nowhere near as large. Stop the War has been the most successful mass mobilisation in this country since 1926.

The SWP and Respect make things happen.

I have no more to say on the matter.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

In my opinion, Palestine Solidarity Campaign is nowhere near as big as it should be.

 

[chilango]

Anti-Tuition fees did not exist in any considerable form. Palestinean Solidarity would be nowhere near as large. Stop the War has been the most successful mass mobilisation in this country since 1926.

The SWP and Respect make things happen.

I have no more to say on the matter.

the tuition fees campaign has been going for years and years. with bigger demos that it has now if you want to use that as a measure of success. as ex member of my union exec and delegate to NUS conference i should point out that a)the SWP had no member at my college the campaign was initiated and run by others. and b) at conferences it was not just the SWP that argued for more miltancy against fees. long before respect.

How long do you think solidaity with palestine has existed?

STW was not a succesful mobilisation - it was huge, granted. but failed miserably.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

STW failed?
This coming from a well meaning liberal who doesn't support the Iraqis right to self-determination or there right to fight for self-determination.

Of course it hasn't stopped the war yet, but the anti-war movement is winning. We have already toppled most of the pro-war leaders in Europe - Aznar. berlusconi et al, we got the scalp of rumfield, the national resistance in Iraq has made the US occupation impossible, and there is now a majority in UK/US and Iraq who favour ending the occupation. In the 60s, the US ruling class began to contemplate defeat around 1970 (after the Tet Offensive in '68 and the anti-war movement peaking in '70) but the war dragged on for another 5 years.

But the war in Iraq isn't just about US domination of the oil field of Iraq, it is about US domination of the global economy for the next 100 years (see the Project of the New American Century).

Therefore, for the British and American ruling class the stakes are far higher than in Vietnam. Vietnam only had rice and wasn't central to the American ruling classes strategy to retain hegemony in the world.

Therefore stopping the war is a lot harder than any other struggle, because so much hinges on Iraq for our rulers. If the popular resistance in Iraq and the global anti-war movement win every progressive movement around the globe will be strengthened and it could light a fire that will toppled the apartheid regime in jerusalem, sweep away mubarak and the house of saud and bring down governments in the west

Given what is at stake in Iraq to think that stopping the war there would be easy is naive, it's gonna take a long hard struggle and the liberals on these boards who since the occupation began have copped out of organising against the occupation ain't got nothing worthwhile to say.

 

[chilango]

Anyway i`m outta here...

I think the OP's question has been answered...Respect = delusional, arrogant and dishonest!

Udo: You can throw around the term "liberal" trying to offend me if you want. i don`t really care if you think I'm a liberal, I don`t place any particular value having a "revolutionary" identity. But I`ll come back to your points on Iraq another time. What difference do you think the Iraqi "resistance" has on for example the Oaxaca commune? bugger all thats what! But we`ll discuss this again I`m sure....

 

[JTG]

Bristol STW were very careful to ensure the SWP didn't get anywhere near controlling the local organisation and were still quite active and successful as these things go.

Sorry to tell you this but there it is

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Chilango, many of the radical developments in Latin America can only take place because the US is bogged down in Iraq and the Middle East. Tariq Ali on a recent visit to Caracas described government ministers with huge maps of Iraq on their walls saying it is because of the resistance there that we are able to get away here (in Uncle Sam's backyard) with our policies. The resistance to globalisation - the economic face of imperialism is greatly strengthened by the resistance to imperialism - the military face of globalisation.

Interestingly at an anti-privatisation conference in Basra, a film was shown of the Argentinian co-operative and factory occupations made by Naomi Klein. However, resistance to the US corporate takeover of Iraq is hampered by the military occupation - it's difficult to organise under military occupation, that is why when the leader of the Basra Oil Workers Union (one of the most militant trade unions in Iraq) spoke in the UK, he always stressed that he supported the military resistance that aimed to drive the British and Americans out. Unlike Chilango who refuses to support people resisting military occupation, did you know that according to recent surveys, 2 out of 3 Iraqis support military attacks on coalition forces and every single survey has shown the majority want British and American troops out.

Hugo Chavez has become a hero in the Middle East because he took action agianst Israel when the Arab regimes wouldn't (during the invasion of Lebanon). Many commentators in the Arab world comment favourably on a leader who uses the oil wealth of his country for social programmes to benefit the poor and is democratically elected - and wonder why their own oil rich countries can't operate in this fashion

To Chilango: What impact have the Zapatistas had on the mass movements going on at the moment, for the most part Marcos has stood on the sidelines.

 

[greenman]

I, and I suspect many others on here have little problem with Respect's actual policies, or even the SWP's come to that (At least as they appear on paper - which is not the same as in practice!), when they are compared to all the other Trot and Leninist parties (Same piss, larger bottle )

No, what really annoys, after 25-odd years experience of the SWP "supporting" just about every campaign going, is attitude and political practice. The "democratic centralism" of the SWP is akin to Nechaevism - anything goes, the party is always right, the party above all, it is better to destroy organisations than to see them pass into the hands of rivals and opponents etc. The recent behaviour of the SWP in Scotland is a case in point.

Galloway is another barrier to most of the British left having anything to do with Respect, but he is one man, whereas the SWP is a whole movement based on practice and attitudes that have been proved time and again to lead up a blind alley. When the history of the British left from 1970 to 2006 is written it will amaze the readers of the future that a group could be so dominant on the left in Britain yet so small in continental political terms, that it could go through such a vast number of recruits due to its market leader position amongst the left and leave them burnt out, disillusioned or reactionary.

What is the secret? Simple - recruit lots of students and radical middle class youth and run them into the ground with the ceaseless brainless activism that Das praises to the skies. When they are burnt out, recruit another lot and do the same. Milk every campaign for members even though you really think it is a reformist dead end, and when it is finished, toss it away like a used tissue. Keep power with your small number of aging 60s and 70s generation leading cadre and ban, exclude or marginalise any challenge to them. Pursue any divisive strategy amongst the working class along religious or racial lines and bolster reactionary community leaderships provided it promises a fenced off recruitment area for a while.

So, cheers to generations of ex SWPers for their activism and commitment, but no thanks to the cult leaders who have used their quasi-religious enthusiasm to perpetuate a political dead end. A political pyramid scheme where the only winners are those perpetually at the top and the base is constantly renewed in scorched earth alienation of potential radicals from long term political commitment.

A tragedy of the left.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Ah c'mon Greenman, it's not all bad!

 

[Red Leicester]

I know for a fact nothing would have happened in the North West without Respect and the SWP.

Delusional. Get help.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Ok Leicester, where the fuck are you from in the North West and what the fuck have you done?

Or seen done, or heard done, or anything done.

btw - I remain extremely critical of SWP policy, format and in many cases, function. Simply because it's the only organisation worth dealing with on the far left in this country doesn't mean I blindly praise the SWP with all it's decisions and/or otherwise. I have a relatively large record within the Party of voting against the general line at conference on key issues in both the SWP and Respect, however I know where and when to end my public criticism before it simply becomes ridiculous and petty - which is what the majority of those on this forum seem to have no comprehension of whatsoever.

 

[Nigel]

They're all suggestions, but they're all rhetorical. Saying "fight for" doesn't mean a lot unless you can say how you're going to do it.

Fair point, but that was'nt the question being asked.
These are the points that I would argue you should build a programme around on this issue if I was involved in or setting up a campaign around this issue.

 

[Red Leicester]

Ok Leicester, where the fuck are you from in the North West ...?

Obviously, I'm from Leicester - which is in the East Midlands. (See my earlier post about Respect in the East Midlands).

...and what the fuck have you done...Or seen done, or heard done, or anything done.

Quite a bit - but I don't find the need to brag.


My point is that saying that nothing would have happened around Palestine (or any other issue?) in the entire North West of England "without Respect and the SWP" is clearly delusional.

If you suffer from these delusions I really think you should seek help.

I admire your willingness to vote against the "general line" at SWP conferences - from what I've heard (I've never been a member) that's not an easy thing to do. But perhaps you should join another group. Personally, I'm a member of Workers Power.

 

[bruise]

Ah c'mon Greenman, it's not all bad!

greenman's post summed up the SWP accurately and fairly. what's to disagree with?

 

[Red Leicester]

OK "Das Uberdog" I've spotted your comments on another thread - so, despite your claimed "oppositionist" tendencies within the SWP, you're not willing to have discussions with anyone else: "Simply put, none of you anti-Respectites have any significant arguments worth debating".

OK. Fine. Bye.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Fucking hell I haven't gone on these boards for ages and the same old circular and head banging debates are going on. Seriously why do you bother, aren't there better things to do? Has anyone ever actually changed their minds on these kinda threads?

And UberDog, you really don't come across well. Whatever you think of others your posts just seem insulting, arrogant and a tad hysterical (I don't mean this as an insult by the way).

If other lefties wind you up so much why bother debating with them. Go and do something more relaxing, it's not like you're ever gonna change their minds.

Red Leicester, whatever our political disagreements, good name!

 

[ska invita]

I think the OP's question has been answered...Respect = delusional, arrogant and dishonest!

Speaking as the Opening Poster, actually I have found that I have a lot of sympathy for the Respectists! - I've managed to get this far without pinning by colours to one mast, but the spite doled out to Respect is, from what I can see on this thread, .... words fail me. It's uncalled for.

• Respect have been putting a lot of muscle backing the two big current campaigns STW and Climate Change - no one can deny that. These are the two big global issues: US imperialism and ecological destruction - it's only right that any party of the left should be pushing on these issues full steam ahead.
  
  
• The party is small and cannot be representative in all parts of the country, never mind all parts of London. THe criticism about Leicester falls into this bracket I would imagine.
  
  
• They do have a socialist agenda and significant SWP contingents, but so what? Since when has this become such a blasphemy?
  
  
• Are they populist? Hmmm... kind of - but I think when you add up all the strands of what they get up to it starts to form a coherent picture.
  
  
• The whole relationship with Muslims is always going to be a tightrope (for those who decry all religion), but again I sympathise with the position - to me this Iraq war was just another step in a hundred years of colonial history, nothing more nothing less - I think it is right to come to the side of Muslims, despite any theological and philosphical differences.

Nothing on this thread has made me think that Respect are corrupt or delusional - it does make me marvel at the latest chapter of Leftist infighting. It will be interesting to see if Respect can survive past Galloway, and it would be nice if they ahd a few more interesting figureheads -a bit more breadth.

The notion that this is Galloway's ego trip is an easy insult to sling - but lets face it, Galloway got kicked out of New Labour and it is only right that a new party emerge to fill the gap that New Labour have created. A political party like Respect can be what people want it to be - particularly at this early, maleable stage.

I for one wish Respect all the best.

P>S> I can see why the Respect posters a getting hot under the collar - that anti_respect sentiment is viscious and really out of all proportion to the reality- Cockney Rebel: I haven't change my opinon as I didnt feel strongly either way, but this thread has helped me form one.

greenman's critcisms are interesting though, but I tend to be more interseted in the bigger policy issues - organisational problems exist for all parties in different ways.

 

[ska invita]

I had a look at the Respect manfiesto today:
http://www.respectcoalition.org/pdf/f459.pdf
...have to say I dont disagree with a word of it.

-Is it just a case that a significant number those on the left at this time are unwilling to give their support to a political party, no matter what?

I know that persoanally I have always dodged any direct political allegiance - can critics of Respect even imagine a party they would support? What would it look like that is so different? - Allegiance to any party is going to mean some degree of compromise I would imagine.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Fair point, but that was'nt the question being asked.

Well, it was. I should know, it was I who asked it.

 

[poster342002]

Saying "fight for" doesn't mean a lot unless you can say how you're going to do it.

To be fair, this problem afflicts the left as a whole, I find. I hear a lot of "fight for this!", "put pressure on union leaders to do that!", "such and such NOW!" and so on - but precious little on how this can be achieved in face of the establishment simply ignoring such campaigns.

 

[poster342002]

Pretty much every other leftist organisation with the resources to perpetuate a large campaign has been up for ditching the Stop the War campaign for years now.

Perhaps because it hasn't Stopped The War and shows no sign of doing so?