Respect - Growth in membership?

[greenman]

The IWCA, attempts to build a TU left in the Green Party, the relaunched Socialist Alliance and efforts of some of its small constituent groups like the Alliance for Green Socialism are all small glimmers of hope. (And perhaps even this RMT political conference thing) What is needed is community and workplace organising in tandem with broad non-sectarian electoral co-operation on the left.

 

[poster342002]

But the structure is similar, isn't it? Branches, districts, policy decided by conference etc. And the goals the same - campaign in poor areas, win local elections etc.

Don't know too much about the structures, so couldn't really comment. But the IWCA has at least grasped the nature of the problem and understands, in essence, the need to begin again from scratch to build up a new working-class movement that places that same working class centre-stage and listenes to it's concerns. The old, clapped-out trotskyist and labourist outfits are very much yesterday's men and going nowhere fast.

 

[Harold Hill]

It can go one of three ways, really:

1. RESPECT can see an initial flood of interest, followed by people leaving in droves when they find out RESPECT is run by and for the SWP and GG.

2. RESPECT can have this backfire completely, as GG and the party he represents are mercilessly lampooned by all and sundry.

3. A flood of interest followed by a moderate increase in membership.

Personally, I favour 1 or 2, or possibly a combination of the two.

As long as 90% probably couldn't tell you the name of the party galloway is part of I'd go for option 4 - fuck all difference.

 

[lewislewis]

Respect has fully come out as the 'party for Muslims'. With Galloway placing them in that spiritual constituency, Respect's profile outside Islam isn't ever going to be significant enough to effect UK politics.

It's not as if Respect is a far-left group, Respect is presumably meant to be an election party. They have no credibility and are not taken seriously across the political spectrum. They certainly aren't taken as seriously here as the Socialist Alliance was...

Edit- Although it has to be said the Socialist Alliance was a failure, remember the 9 votes by-election?

 

[WasGeri]

Can't see why anyone would want to join Respect after seeing that patronising, sexist, bitchy twat on Celebrity BB.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Respect has fully come out as the 'party for Muslims'. With Galloway placing them in that spiritual constituency, Respect's profile outside Islam isn't ever going to be significant enough to effect UK politics.
?

Well said. What respect has done is legitimise dodgy sectarian politics and the policy of harvesting votes on the grounds of race and religion -- just what the BNP do in fact.

How on earth can the respectdroids attack the BNP as divisive when they are following the same kinds of policies themselves.

 

[Allen CCFC]

The SWP need a brain transplant.

John Rees writes in his article "A challenge for Respect" about preparations for the forthcoming May elections in this weeks socialist worker

He quotes Preston Respect councillor Michael Lavalette stating “If we want to get councillors elected in May we need to prove that Respect is not only the anti-war party.

“It will also fight over issues like civil liberties, Make Poverty History and the environment. We also have to be involved in what’s happening locally — we have to be there to deal with leaking roofs and the rest.”

In the same paper John Rees speaks about George Galloway's appearance on Big Brother while not agreeing with the idea still demanding that "we continue to support him and Respect. We stick by our allies, even if we feel they have made a mistake"

Live Tonight on celebrity Big brother the Respect MP for Bethnal Green George Galloway has been impersonating an animal with Rula Lenski feeding him milk. Glad to see that he's been involved locally this week in his constituency dealing with the local roofs and the rest.

This is bordering on Monty Python

 

[tollbar]

Live Tonight on celebrity Big brother the Respect MP for Bethnal Green George Galloway has been impersonating an animal with Rula Lenski feeding him milk. Glad to see that he's been involved locally this week in his constituency dealing with the local roofs and the rest.

This is bordering on Monty Python[/QUOTE]

Bloody Hell. He is making Kilroy-Silk look like a serious politician. Can you imagine all the LP hacks grabbing images off CBB for use in election literature against Respect.

Meanwhile in the real world, I believe that the vote on crossrail is tomorrow night, whilst presumably GG will be doing a sanddance with Barrymore and Rodman or something like it.

Also, unnoticed by those in England, The SSP have forced the issue of the abolition of perscription charges to the top of the political agenda in Scotland where the principal for abolition in a bill moved by Colin Fox has been supported by the Cross party health committee in the parliament and has the support of 54 of the 64 MSPs needed to get it passed.

Ironic, isnt it that only a few months ago Galloway was sneering at the SSP as a busted flush for dumping Sheridan.

 

[big footed fred]

fuck you;ve got a really firm grasp of history.

so I take it we will overlook the rampant death, destruction and alienation of the status quo?

Tell me what was the correct stance between slave trade supporters and those wanting outright abolition? Was it somewhere in between? Spartacus and Rome?

rocking all over the world killed a few eardrums but other that that quo were not that bad a band

Maybe you are thinking of Mr Bush and Bin Ladin. Another pair of cretins willing to kill for extreme ideas.
It's always the ones with far out ideas (political or religious) that are the problem.
Slave trade ? it requires no answer as it is clear but, in case you are stupid, the extreme idea that it's fine to own another human was removed by the voice of moderation that said it was not.
The other extreme would be to say that the slaves are allowed to own the traders.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

you're wrong.

He's not - as usual people are confusing ethnicity with religion.


There are plenty of wards and constituencies where there are a majority from minority ethnic groups. There are however only twenty of the 8,868 wards (0.2%) in England and Wales where muslims form a majority. Of these four are in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets (three of which are in the Bethnal Green and Bow constituency, which has a high proportion of muslims but not a majority - I'll calculate the exact figure but it'll be around 40%). There are also three wards with a majority of muslims in the parliamentary constituency of Home Secretary Jack Straw. I have tried to do a data mapping from ward onto parliamentary constituency to get the tallies for all constituencies, but unfortunately there are some wards that cover more than one constituency and this makes the data mapping tricky and time-consuming and I don't have the time.

20 wards in England & Wales with more than 50% Muslim population - source Census 2001


Ward Local_authority_area Region % Muslim
Bastwell Blackburn with Darwen North West 73.5%
Shear Brow Blackburn with Darwen North West 70.3%
Whitefield Pendle North West 67.1%
Toller Bradford Yorkshire and The Humber 64.3%
Small Heath Birmingham West Midlands 62.1%
Spitalfields and Banglatown Tower Hamlets London 61.9%
Daneshouse with Stoneyholme Burnley North West 60.7%
University Bradford Yorkshire and The Humber 59.2%
Bradford Moor Bradford Yorkshire and The Humber 58.9%
Sparkbrook Birmingham West Midlands 58.9%
Spinney Hills Leicester East Midlands 55.9%
Audley Blackburn with Darwen North West 55.0%
Whitechapel Tower Hamlets London 54.5%
Sparkhill Birmingham West Midlands 54.0%
Coldhurst Oldham North West 52.7%
Werneth Oldham North West 52.5%
Bethnal Green South Tower Hamlets London 52.3%
Shadwell Tower Hamlets London 51.7%
Dallow Luton East of England 51.3%
Biscot Luton East of England 50.6%

 

[tobyjug]

you're wrong.

I refer you to post number 40.

 

[lewislewis]

20 wards in England & Wales with more than 50% Muslim population - source Census 2001

Get your facts right. None of those wards are in Wales.

Respect is a joke, sorry but how can a full-time MP appear on a celebrity reality TV show?

Galloway is harming the entire left and especially the anti-war movement.

The SSP have been winning political victories in the Scottish Parliament (someone here commented about abolishing prescription charges). What does Galloway do? He undermines the SSP and describes them as a 'bunch of Trot apparatchiks', and then tries to split them !! Galloway doesn't mix with the SSP, maybe because the SSP have principles, and are willing to do the work they were elected for.

How can Galloway seriously walk into any political meeting or debate now he has impersonated a farm animal live on UK television? How can Galloway talk to other MPs, to Muslim community leaders and to the members who worked to get him elected? He is a laughing stock and a disgrace, and the SWP leaders are a corrupt gang of idiots and fools.

 

[lewislewis]

Well said. What respect has done is legitimise dodgy sectarian politics and the policy of harvesting votes on the grounds of race and religion -- just what the BNP do in fact.

How on earth can the respectdroids attack the BNP as divisive when they are following the same kinds of policies themselves.

Yeah I can see the similarities between Respect and the BNP now, someone else pointed out the eery similarity between 'party for Muslims' and 'rights for whites'.

Is there any truth to the allegation that Respect had segragated male/female seating at their meetings?? I've never been sure whether this was a rumour or truth.

 

[belboid]

He's not - as usual people are confusing ethnicity with religion.

yes he is, and speak for yourself.

20 out of 9000 odd is fuck all.

 

[belboid]

I refer you to post number 40.

and I refer you to a psychiatrist.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Get your facts right. None of those wards are in Wales.
...

Read what I said carefully.

8,868 wards in Wales and England.

No wards in Wales have more than 50% muslim population, so they are not in the 20 I listed, all of which are in England. Whether there were wards or constituencies that had a majority of muslims was the issue in dispute.

In fact only five wards in Wales have more than 10% Muslim population:

% Muslim
Cardiff Butetown 19.1%
Newport Victoria 17.6%
Newport Pillgwenlly 16.4%
Cardiff Riverside 14.6%
Cardiff Grangetown 12.5%


I was seeking to disprove the notion that there were lots of wards and constituencies with a majority of muslims. In fact there are just 20 wards, all in England, and no parliamentary constituencies. I rest my case.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

yes he is, and speak for yourself.

20 out of 9000 odd is fuck all.

Oh dear. This inane ranting does no-one any good at all.

I refer to the debate:

mmm, how many area's are actually 'majority muslim'? Not sure if there is a single ward in Tower Hamlets where that is even true.

Depends how small an area. I don't think there is one Parliamentary constituency that is "majority Muslim", I suspect there are a fair number of electoral wards that are though.

you're wrong.

He's not ...

The facts.

1) Tobyjug was right to say there are no parliamentary constituencies with a majority of muslims.

2) Belboid was wrong to say there are no wards 'even' in Tower Hamlets where there are a majority of muslims - 4 out of 17 wards have a majority of muslims.

3) Tobyjug said there are 'fair number' of wards that have a majority of muslims. In fact there are just 20, all in England. Belboid says that is 'fuck all'. Who is right depends on your point of view - 20 is certainly more than the zero implied by belboid; but whether Tobyjug meant dozens (which is close to the truth) or hundreds (which is way out), when he said 'fair number' is open to debate.

Everyone happy now?

 

[belboid]

oh dear me, what a rather poor defence from someone who clearly didnt bother reading he comments properly, and has absolutely no idea of what a 'rant' is.

So to clarify for the simple one, I didnt say anything about parliamentary constituencies, I didn't claim there were 0 wards without a muslim majority, even in TH, simply that there were very very few of them. 20 is slightly higher than I would have guessed, but only slightly, and as you pointed out it is a miniscule percentage.

I'll be much happier when you drop your sanctimonious tone, but I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

oh dear me, what a rather poor defence from someone who clearly didnt bother reading he comments properly, and has absolutely no idea of what a 'rant' is.

So to clarify for the simple one, I didnt say anything about parliamentary constituencies, I didn't claim there were 0 wards without a muslim majority, even in TH, simply that there were very very few of them. 20 is slightly higher than I would have guessed, but only slightly, and as you pointed out it is a miniscule percentage.

I'll be much happier when you drop your sanctimonious tone, but I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

I think you should drop the categorical statements assuming superior knowledge when you really don't know.

Tobyjug said he though there were no parliamentary constituencies and a 'fair number' of wards with a majority muslim.

You said "You're Wrong" to the whole statement without any idea of what the actual facts were.

If you'd said something like: "I'm not sure but I think you are right about parliamentary constituencies but I doubt if there are more than a handful of wards with a majority of muslims", you'd have been on safe grounds. Just saying "You're wrong" without a shred of evidence does your case no good at all.

 

[tobyjug]

but whether Tobyjug meant dozens (which is close to the truth) or hundreds (which is way out), when he said 'fair number' is open to debate.

I certainly did not mean hundreds, the actuarial result is about what I expected as electoral wards are still pretty large in area. I don't think data exists for smaller areas than electoral wards. (If someone has access to such data I would be interested)

 

[hibee]

Read what I said carefully.

8,868 wards in Wales and England.

No wards in Wales have more than 50% muslim population, so they are not in the 20 I listed, all of which are in England. Whether there were wards or constituencies that had a majority of muslims was the issue in dispute.

In fact only five wards in Wales have more than 10% Muslim population:

% Muslim
Cardiff Butetown 19.1%
Newport Victoria 17.6%
Newport Pillgwenlly 16.4%
Cardiff Riverside 14.6%
Cardiff Grangetown 12.5%


I was seeking to disprove the notion that there were lots of wards and constituencies with a majority of muslims. In fact there are just 20 wards, all in England, and no parliamentary constituencies. I rest my case.

You don't need a majority of muslims in any given constituency for respect's "the party for muslims" strategy to have a hope of success. Just a critical mass.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I certainly did not mean hundreds, the actuarial result is about what I expected as electoral wards are still pretty large in area. I don't think data exists for smaller areas than electoral wards. (If someone has access to such data I would be interested)

I presume you mean "actual result". "actuarial result" is what you get when you do a calculation about your pension.

Yes the data does exist down to Census Output Area - a few hundred households.

I don't think analysing it will prove anything we don't already know - the muslim community is concentrated in a number of particular areas where it can reach quite high densities. These areas are dotted around the country (England).

Ward level and constituency data is the most meaningful in this context because these are the units of elected political representation.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

You don't need a majority of muslims in any given constituency for respect's "the party for muslims" strategy to have a hope of success. Just a critical mass.

I've already shown in earlier posts that previous Respect electoral results (2004 EU election) and muslim population (Census 2001) do have a relationship/correlation, but it varies between 'quite weak' and 'quite strong', depending on different parts of the country. It is quite strong in London but quite weak in the North West. Nowhere is the 'proportion of muslims' strong enough to be the only factor and a perfect predictor (speaking statistically) of electoral performance.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Galloway is harming the entire left and especially the anti-war movement.

.

Plaid Cymru, the party you support, harmed the whole anti-war movement and left by (unlike Galloway) not having the guts to say in parliament after the London bombings that their was a clear link with British foreign policy in Iraq and the attrocities in London, instead they issued a joint statement with the SNP that was just wishy washy and showed how much they lacked nerve or principle

By not focusing on Iraq they also let down Muslims, because by not shifting the focus of the debate onto British foreign policy in Iraq - and a change of foreign policy is the only thing that can solve the blowback of terrorism - they didn't challenge the media and politicians demonization of Islam.

If Ken Livingstone, Charles Kennedy, Anti-War Labour MPs, Plaid Cymru and the SNP had any backbone and had joined Galloway in Parliament in linking the London Bombings to Iraq they would have changed the whole terrain of debate in the media and society and probably their would not have been a 600% rise in attacks on Muslims - because that was the alternative explanation for 7/7 on offer, that their was something wrong within Islam and the solution to terrorism lay with the Muslim community, when we all know that the only solution to terrorism lies with our government.

Plaid Cymru also by not focusing on Iraq at the crucial moment, also helped New Labour to attack civil liberties.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

You don't need a majority of muslims in any given constituency for respect's "the party for muslims" strategy to have a hope of success. Just a critical mass.

I've never seen this so-called "party for muslims" strategy written down. Only references to one leaflet in one election in one part of the country. If it was a strategy, I'd have thought there would be references to it in all electoral literature across the country and in official Respect policies and documents.

 

[lewislewis]

Plaid Cymru, the party you support, harmed the whole anti-war movement and left by (unlike Galloway) not having the guts to say in parliament after the London bombings that their was a clear link with British foreign policy in Iraq and the attrocities in London, instead they issued a joint statement with the SNP that was just wishy washy and showed how much they lacked nerve or principle

By not focusing on Iraq they also let down Muslims, because by not shifting the focus of the debate onto British foreign policy in Iraq - and a change of foreign policy is the only thing that can solve the blowback of terrorism - they didn't challenge the media and politicians demonization of Islam.

If Ken Livingstone, Charles Kennedy, Anti-War Labour MPs, Plaid Cymru and the SNP had any backbone and had joined Galloway in Parliament in linking the London Bombings to Iraq they would have changed the whole terrain of debate in the media and society and probably their would not have been a 600% rise in attacks on Muslims - because that was the alternative explanation for 7/7 on offer, that their was something wrong within Islam and the solution to terrorism lay with the Muslim community, when we all know that the only solution to terrorism lies with our government.

Plaid Cymru also by not focusing on Iraq at the crucial moment, also helped New Labour to attack civil liberties.

Plaid contributed to the anti-war movement in Wales more than Galloway and Respect did. We demonstrated in Wales as part of STWC and CND, and sent contingents to London for that demo, on which I marched. Plaid speakers appeared at all the anti-war events in Wales, Plaid councillors supported staff walk-outs against the war, and raised the issue in European Parliament, Welsh Assembly and UK Parliament. Plaid led an impeachment campaign against Blair which Galloway rightly supported.

Plaid did not side with Galloway's analysis but did prior to, during and after the war make the link between UK foreign policy and terrorism. A central plank of Plaid's anti-war argument was that war in Iraq would make UK a terrorist target. As Cllr Mohammed Asghar (Plaid, Newport) said after the bombings: "Countries must unite against international terrorism and must tackle the poverty and injustice which is such a factor. " That illustrates our position for you Udo.

As for Islamophobia- Plaid Cymru is the only party that joined the far-left in rallying in Cardiff against attacks on mosques, and called in the Assembly for a fighting fund to protect places of worship from violence.

Civil Liberties- we made pledges not to carry ID cards, raised the issue in Parliament and the Assembly, made an Assembly resolution against them and raised the issue in the UK media.

Let's face it, we've done more than Galloway has.

Apologies to most people who'll find this boring, but Udo decided to attack my politics in response to my criticism of Galloway. I'm sure others will note that Udo failed to defend Galloway.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Plaid Cymru is the only party that joined the far-left in rallying in Cardiff against attacks on mosques

It's a little bit cheeky boasting about this to ME!

I, a Respect member, initiated this demo having got permission from the imam and secretary of the mosque attacked (and I spoke at the demo from the platform). I also contacted Plaid Cymru - I phoned up 2 Plaid Cymru councillors to elicit their support - which to their credit they gave and were extremely helpful.

You may be interested to know that the LibDem MP from the constituency (where the mosque was attacked) was supposed to be speaking, up until the day before, when I got an unexpected email saying that they had been "advised by the police not to attend for security reasons".

New Labour also had an operation going on, with one local Labour MP doing the rounds of Mosques to tell them not to attend this "divisive demonstration that would provoke more trouble for Muslims".

Nobody claims that Plaid Cymru are the enemy, but Plaid MPs did seriously let down the movement on 7/7. Fortunately, Galloway was in the House of Commons so the spinelessness of Plaid, SNP, Charles Kennedy, Ken Livingstone, the Labour left on that day was not fatal

 

[JoePolitix]

Plaid Cymru, the party you support, harmed the whole anti-war movement and left by (unlike Galloway) not having the guts to say in parliament after the London bombings that their was a clear link with British foreign policy in Iraq and the attrocities in London

Yes but Galloway has just appeared on national TV and confirmed that his love affair with Ba'athist dictators is far from over. Given he is far more prominant in the anti-war movement than Plaid Cymru this lastest bout of idiocy will cause more harm than some statement that hardly anyone will have read has.

 

[lewislewis]

It's a little bit cheeky boasting about this to ME!

I, a Respect member, initiated this demo having got permission from the imam and secretary of the mosque attacked (and I spoke at the demo from the platform). I also contacted Plaid Cymru - I phoned up 2 Plaid Cymru councillors to elicit their support - which to their credit they gave and were extremely helpful.

You may be interested to know that the LibDem MP from the constituency (where the mosque was attacked) was supposed to be speaking, up until the day before, when I got an unexpected email saying that they had been "advised by the police not to attend for security reasons".

New Labour also had an operation going on, with one local Labour MP doing the rounds of Mosques to tell them not to attend this "divisive demonstration that would provoke more trouble for Muslims".

Nobody claims that Plaid Cymru are the enemy, but Plaid MPs did seriously let down the movement on 7/7. Fortunately, Galloway was in the House of Commons so the spinelessness of Plaid, SNP, Charles Kennedy, Ken Livingstone, the Labour left on that day was not fatal

I suspected that you ran that demo and well done to you.

But if Plaid supported you and we aren't enemies (we aren't), why launch that massive attack on us? You practically accused us of being responsible for attacks on Muslims.

 

[JimPage]

20 wards in England & Wales with more than 50% Muslim population - source Census 2001
etc etc

thanks for that. and the problem for respect is this. they have a winning strategy to win every muslim majority ward in the uk- and also have enough support to win those with, as a poster put, a critical mass of voters- say over 40%- i dont know the stats on this but guess it would be many more than 20.

But what next? Having done this- how are they going to appeal to other working class people?

I was interested and puzzled the other week by the BNPs intention to fight every ward in Birmingham and Bradford in May 2006 the other week- including the high ethnicity inner city wards. Based on past performances they havent doen that well in this sort of ward This will stretch them organisationally- in cities liek bradford where they are defending sitting councillors or birmingham where they want to push 20% ward votes into councillors. so why stand? I suspect it is because they very much like respect's idea of splitting the labour vote on race grounds as also benefitting them. say in a ward where respect can attract under half the muslim vote- it may only require a 5% vote for the BNP to let respect in. they will also hope that once elected, respect will focus almost wholly on the interests of muslim people

one other thing- are the swp going to prioritise antifascist work through their Unite front or electoral work via their Respect front?