Respect attack naked girl (true!)

[articul8]

that is simply not true. I, for example, know people around the SP in Preston who supported the stand Respect took against the decision to axe the town's christmas carol concert in the name of multiculturalism for example (amongst other issues). But when they make 'outraged of Chipping Sodbury' outbursts of conservative moralising I do feel people are entitled to take the piss.

I think that there is a big difference between a lap-dancing club (which institutionalises sexual exploitation - of both sexes incidenctally - for profit), and this exhibitionism. One person's 'soft porn shite' is another persons 'art' and vice versa. I just think that moralising against public displays of nudity is a slippery slope - at the bottom end of which is censorship of art in general. As far as I know there is no SP 'line' on public nudity as such one way or the other And long may that remain the case!

 

[levien]

They would oppose the ban as you well know.

The concept of "fling enough mud and some will stick" only works if there is enough substance in the mud for it not to be called water.

 

[Calum McD]

:I think that there is a big difference between a lap-dancing club (which institutionalises sexual exploitation - of both sexes incidenctally - for profit), and this exhibitionism. One person's 'soft porn shite' is another persons 'art' and vice versa. !

absolutely

 

[Fisher_Gate]

that is simply not true. I, for example, know people around the SP in Preston who supported the stand Respect took against the decision to axe the town's christmas carol concert in the name of multiculturalism for example (amongst other issues). But when they make 'outraged of Chipping Sodbury' outbursts of conservative moralising I do feel people are entitled to take the piss.

I think that there is a big difference between a lap-dancing club (which institutionalises sexual exploitation - of both sexes incidenctally - for profit), and this exhibitionism. One person's 'soft porn shite' is another persons 'art' and vice versa. I just think that moralising against public displays of nudity is a slippery slope - at the bottom end of which is censorship of art in general. As far as I know there is no SP 'line' on public nudity as such one way or the other And long may that remain the case!

Oh don't be silly. Lavalette's statement that started the whole thread wasn't 'conservative moralising' - his main point is that there's a big difference between art and pornography. If you read the journalist's description of what this woman was up to (based as it is on the pictures on the website and the evidence in court), it's pretty obvious this 'exhibitionism' was about pornography. Good on Dave Nellist for opposing the lap dancing club in his area, and even being prepared to join forces with the church over it - but don't criticise a Respect councillor for saying exactly the same sort of thing three weeks later.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

West Coast Studios in Blackpool, where the photographer is based, advertises itself as a 'glamour model' studio with 'adult' webcam feeds. (you can do the search yourself if you don't believe me).

Anyone still want to claim this is about art not pornography?

And I don't see the difference between a lap-dancing club and a glamour model photographic business. Both are about the commercial exploitation of sex, which, like Dave Nellist, I agree is a big issue.

 

[BarryB]

Oh don't be silly. Lavalette's statement that started the whole thread wasn't 'conservative moralising' - his main point is that there's a big difference between art and pornography. If you read the journalist's description of what this woman was up to (based as it is on the pictures on the website and the evidence in court), it's pretty obvious this 'exhibitionism' was about pornography. Good on Dave Nellist for opposing the lap dancing club in his area, and even being prepared to join forces with the church over it - but don't criticise a Respect councillor for saying exactly the same sort of thing three weeks later.

Perhaps instead of opposing a lap dancing club Dave Nellist should be encouraging the workers concerned to join the GMB union which already represents some lap dancers.

BarryB

 

[Calum McD]

West Coast Studios in Blackpool, where the photographer is based, advertises itself as a 'glamour model' studio with 'adult' webcam feeds. (you can do the search yourself if you don't believe me).

hope you don't get caught googling for dodgy websites then.

Jokes aside, I think there is a real issue for socialists to consider here - the question of censoring pornography. Many feminists would object to the idea that defending the rights of women not to have their bodies exploited for profits automatically means introducing a moralistic prohibition on displaying sexuality.

 

[Calum McD]

Perhaps instead of opposing a lap dancing club Dave Nellist should be encouraging the workers concerned to join the GMB union which already represents some lap dancers.

BarryB

I'm sure he would, for those already employed in that industry. However, I don't see why this means you would have to support new clubs opening up.

 

[BarryB]

I'm sure he would, for those already employed in that industry. However, I don't see why this means you would have to support new clubs opening up.

I take your point. But a license has already been agreed for the club and it is due to open this month. So thats why the women concerned should be encouraged to join the GMB.

BarryB

 

[Fisher_Gate]

hope you don't get caught googling for dodgy websites then.

Jokes aside, I think there is a real issue for socialists to consider here - the question of censoring pornography. Many feminists would object to the idea that defending the rights of women not to have their bodies exploited for profits automatically means introducing a moralistic prohibition on displaying sexuality.

I'm not in favour of shutting down pornography on a moralistic basis. People have a right to enjoy sexual pleasure and visual imagery is part of that. I'm in favour of it being allowed, but we should striving to prevent exploitation of women in particular. I think there should be reasonable limits on where it is sold, ie regulation, I would support the protection of workers rights in the industry eg the right to insist condoms are used, health protection etc, and its unionisation and heavy taxation of big profits.

I think there is a genuine issue about where it's outlets are located. I don't support putting them everywhere (deregulation), just as I wouldn't support building a big factory or a tip in any area. I think the idea of regulated zones is a good one. I'm in favour of legal brothels, indeed I think municpalisation is a good solution. I'm not in favour of allowing public displays of pornographic material or shoots, which was this was, and I think bars need stronger regulation. I'm against the suppression of genuine art, and would defend the vice chancellor at University of Central England who was recently threatened with prosecution for allowing a Mablethorpe book in his university library.

I'm sure Michael Lavalette agrees with some of these ideas too. This is a serious discussion, not at all what the original poster intended when he tried to claim Lavalette was suppressing artistic nudity.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Jokes aside, I think there is a real issue for socialists to consider here - the question of censoring pornography. Many feminists would object to the idea that defending the rights of women not to have their bodies exploited for profits automatically means introducing a moralistic prohibition on displaying sexuality.

Hang on a min. I'm old enough and been around long enough to remember when the SWP was one of the few left groups not to join in feminist campaigns against pornography in high street shops. At the time they argued quite rightly that the stance of most feminists was actually tending to support the moralistic attitude of the right towards sex.

But this incident isn't about that at all is it? I'm against legislation to close down soft porn sites etc. But would you want kids looking at them unfettered? The press said these models were nude and also in 'erotic' poses. Now I can think of a few 'erotic' poses I wouldn't want my five year old exposed to at home let alone walking down the street. If that makes me a moralistic old marxist then so be it.

 

[In Bloom]

Hang on a min. I'm old enough and been around long enough to remember when the SWP was one of the few left groups not to join in feminist campaigns against pornography in high street shops. At the time they argued quite rightly that the stance of most feminists was actually tending to support the moralistic attitude of the right towards sex.

But this incident isn't about that at all is it? I'm against legislation to close down soft porn sites etc. But would you want kids looking at them unfettered? The press said these models were nude and also in 'erotic' poses. Now I can think of a few 'erotic' poses I wouldn't want my five year old exposed to at home let alone walking down the street. If that makes me a moralistic old marxist then so be it.

Does your child suffer from some kind of psychological condition where he'll be scarred for life should he find out that human beings have sex?

 

[Calum McD]

I'm against the suppression of genuine art

I agree with most of your points, unsurprisingly. But who is to decide what counts as 'genuine' art? A lot of what the nazis considered 'dengenerate' in modernism was precisely the willingness to broach the representation of sexuality. eg. Picasso's 'mademoiselles d'avignon'. OK, so in this instance I'd agree the use of 'art' as a justification was purely cynical. But suppose a perfomance artist decided to walk down Orchard St. in the nude...ought that to be banned as pornographic? I'm not sure that you can define 'art' and 'pornography' as mutually exclusive categories. Take the Marquis de Sade for example.

The question is - should public nudity be a criminal offence? Personally, I don't see the appeal of freezing your bits off by parading around starkers in December. But who is it harming? Wouldn't it be more effective to campaign against the use of imported sex slaves working in local brothels?

[edit] as for Bolshie's point about the role of the SWP in the past - their attitude sounds broadly correct. Should we conclude that is the turn to Respect that is responsible for a slide back to 'left' moralism?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Does your child suffer from some kind of psychological condition where he'll be scarred for life should he find out that human beings have sex?

Kids see their parents having sex all the time by accident but they usually don't understand what is going on (certainly not at 5). And even if they have a vague inkling about what is going on I'd have to say no I wouldn't invite a child that young to watch me or anyone else having sex. Are you seriously saying you would?

 

[liampreston]

I agree with Michael on this one; the idea that women (or men) can prance about in "artistic" poses with children around is plain dangerous nonsense. Children must be protected from dangerous or sexually explicit material.

So, before it gets mentioned;

*I do NOT agree with the policy passed at conference allowing children of 16 to buy pornography
*I agree that sexually explicit stores should NOT be given permission to open on busy high streets.