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Replace All Animal Experiments in Europe Petition

Swarfega said:
I personally would have tempered the comment by removing the "purely" qualifier, but other than that, it is still his argument.


:)

And you don't think that 'purely' was a pretty good indication of where he coming from?

Besides, 'purely' or not, that's still not an argument, it's a belief. And judging from his subsequent statements, largely a blind belief - you can't productively argue with someone's 'faith'
 
jæd said:
He still hasn't put forward any practical alternatives to animal testing...


Gary Bushell and Jeremy Kyle testing?



I think maybe his argument is "considering the limited value of animal testing, whether there is an alternative or not is irrelevant"

I dunno correct me if I am wrong Boar......


I personally have no idea one way or another as to it's value today.

I am sure that many critical and major medical breakthroughs have been facilitated purely through the use of testing on animals in the past.
I don't know if methods now available to modern science - software simulations, testing on vat grown cells etc - could provide an equally useful alternative.




:confused:
 
Swarfega said:
I think maybe his argument is "considering the limited value of animal testing, whether there is an alternative or not is irrelevant"

I dunno correct me if I am wrong Boar......

Perhaps if Mr Boar could post-up a reply himself...?
 
Swarfega said:
He will return later I am sure.........I know he is careful about posting at work.

Strange how he has to work when people start calling him up on points...
 
jæd said:
Strange how he has to work when people start calling him up on points...


lol - he predicted that someone would make that comment...


:D


yeah, I know it is seemingly "convenient" but to build up a good head of steam and to maintain the flow of an argument, he needs to give the thread more attention than he feels he can right now - I understand the monitoring of web usage in his office is fairly tight...

If he doesn't return, then......


:confused:
 
This argument is so irksome :( There's truth on either side, and too much dogma always ruins a good discussion.

Let's take it for granted that it is fundamentally a good thing to learn how things in the world work (if we don't accept this then, fine, but let's all go and live in caves with nothing more advanced than fire and the wheel).

The entire fundamentals of neuroscience (I'm going to stick to this because it's my discipline so I know about it) were established, tested and verified by animal experiments. Just a couple of basic examples here.

Being able to examine how non-human brains respond to stimuli before the development of non-invasive techniques was crucial to the development of understanding of how neurons work and how brains are wired up.
The first experiments on nerves were done on giant squid axons, and these were not in the least bit misleading, the basics established there are basically 100% correct for all nerves. OK, some squids died, I really don't think there are many people who mind this, since they're not especially fluffy or cute.

Reflexes were mostly investigated in aplysia (sea hares). Again a process which required invasive monitoring of nerve fibres to measure what was going on and monitor the transmission of information through neural assemblies. Again, what was discovered is absolutely correct and applicable to non-sea slugs.

I could go on, but in summary everything that we know about nerves had to come from animal research because looking at dead people's brains wouldn't have been any help whatsoever. And there aren't many people with iopen skulls for us to investigate. Although, if anyone's up for it, there are no pain receptors in the brain so you wouldn't feel a thing (that is after your skull's been sawn open).

So, knowing how a neuron works to receive and transmit signals is one thing, and now we want to know more about how the brain works. It turns out that since it's a hugely complex system we're unable to model it accurately- even modeling 1 single nerve's interactions with all those it's connected to is pretty much impossible since the system is in a constant state of flux. Therefore, we need a system to examine which is representative.
It is perfectly legitimate to attempt to gain fundamental information from looking at the way animals' brains work to do basic processes, because evolution would suggest that there is a lot in common between species' brains at fundamental levels of processing. And this is in fact borne out by reality.

Basically, we can put electrodes into the brains of animals and look at what they do with inputs, how they represent information and so on, and it gives us a pretty accurate idea of how the human brain can do the same thing. It is unlikely to mislead unless it is overstretched, so maybe looking at the brain of a guinea pig in order to understand how humans process sentences is going to be silly, but looking at a mouse in order to see how brains generally represent click sounds is far less unreasonable.
There is no alternative, unless people suddenly start to have a penchant for having their skulls opened and electrodes whacked in their brains for several hours at a stretch, with potentially damaging consequences.

At present non-invasive techniques for looking at the brain have a resolution of thousands of neurons at best. If we ever want to be able to model the brain (in order to obviate the need for animal testing in neuroscience/psychology) then we have to continue to do variations of single-cell recordings using arrays of electrodes actually plugged into the brain.
There will be new non-invasive techniques, but we will need to validate them in order to be sure they work, which will require detailed information, which can only be obtained from invasive research...
It's a catch 22.

Some animal testing is flawed. Some isn't. To say that it is all fundamentally flawed and exists only because of a conspiracy is fallacious and wrong-headed.
There are still areas where it is the only way to get at information.

Ultimately, we all want to see an end to animal testing, whether for moral, ethical or financial reasons (or all!), but the only way this will happen is if we gather enough information about fundamental biological processes. Once we've got those we can work on making computer simulations. And even then we'd still have to test the safety of new drugs on something because how could you know for sure that the models were totally representative?
The complexity of human biology is such that we could never really be sure.

edited because Aplysia are sea hares not sea slugs (FWIW)
 
Roadkill said:
At last, someone who knows what he's on about*! Thankyou for that, perplexis. :)



*I include myself among those who don't btw...
Thanks, it's a terribly written post though. I'm kind of speed-typing after too much coffee and chocolate! :eek: :)
 
I have read this thread in depth and a lot of people, but not all, are forgetting to mention one vital thing. Humans and Animals have completely different biology, anatomy and physiology and to assume that the results of a drug tested on an animal would have the same successful out come on a human is insane.

Many humans have died horrific deaths after a drug has so called been successfully tested on an animal. We are all to keen to take the word of some over funded researcher who claims the new cure for cancer has worked well on 2000 mice and 6 monkeys so of course you humans are safe. Do me a favour, crackpot boffin.

Also large pharmaceutical companies have been secretly documented by independent researches and investigations to have secretly fixed results to enable the next grant to roll in. I would personally only trust results from researchers who have been funded by the Dr Hadwen Trust or the similar organisations, the reasons behind this are better read on the Dr Hadwen site or in their annual reports and studies.

On a personal note I am sickened by animal testing as it is not only false but it is also a barbaric and out dated way to treat other living creatures. We are all equal in this planet and no human or animal has the right to say how another living creature should be used to improve another life. You live it, we live it, you deal with it, we deal with it, our actions should be our own not another’s suffering.

Animals don’t smoke, drink, take drugs, use chemicals, drive, wear make up or abuse their body’s…because we do why should they suffer?
 
metaljaydog said:
Humans and Animals have completely different biology, anatomy and physiology and to assume that the results of a drug tested on an animal would have the same successful out come on a human is insane.

So why is it then that most of the drugs used on animals by vets are the same drugs used on humans (only more expensive :mad: )?
 
metaljaydog said:
Do me a favour, crackpot boffin.
:rolleyes: (I don't often use that smiley but I feel it is genuinely justified here)
You do realise that science isn't actually carried out by "crackpot boffin"? It's carried out by perfectly normal people, like you! Shock, horror! ZOMFG lol wtf!!!ONE!11!!!

The OP wants us to support the banning of ALL animal experiments. This extends to more than just pharmacological research, as I cack-handedly tried to explain a few posts ago.

You are correct that as far as testing drugs goes, animal models cannot be perfect, and therefore the only proper way to test drugs intended for human consumption/treatment is to test them in humans. However, as I'm sure you are aware, giving people chemicals willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster, and it would be completely unethical to give someone a test chemical if you didn't have at least some reason to believe it was safe. Surely this much is easy to understand? If preserving animal lives is so important to you then I sincerely hope that preserving human lives will be of greater, if not at least equal importance to you. Thus we must agree that giving random compounds to people without some assurance of their safety is bad.
However it is the case that there are diseases which are deadly or crippling for which we do not yet have treatments or cures. Now, since we agree that preserving life is important we'd agree that finding cures for these diseases is also important. So, we manufacture some drugs, but oh no, we can't test them n anything, so everyone just dies. Nevermind eh, let's just hope they get reincarnated into something disease-proof? Or should we attempt to use the tools at our disposal to produce something that might actually help people?
I know which I understand to be the morally correct answer.

This aside, you make the point that humans and animals have "completely diferent biology, anatomy and physiology". This just isn't true. There are many many similarities. The absolute fundamentals of biology are pretty much identical from viruses to humans. Biochemistry is very very similar in mammals of different species. DNA replication, protein synthesis etc., the very building blocks of life itself function in very similar ways- the functioning of a single human cell is pretty much the same as the functioning of a single mouse cell, which is basically the same as a horse, or a cow or whatever. This is why I pointed out that in order to understand basics of biology, animal experimentation is very very important, and for the reasons I described briefly previously, cannot be substituted by experiments in humans. It is at a bigger scale that things differ more significantly, because as systems become more complex more different htings will begin to happen, and this is why drugs tested in animals don't always work the same way as in humans.
But, plenty do, just off the top of my head:
Ketamine
Aspirin
corticosteroids
many antibiotics...

Someting very important that I'd also like to point out is that the experiments done on animals also improve the quality of veterinary care made available to animals. Without that research then animals would suffer more!

metaljaydog said:
On a personal note I am sickened by animal testing as it is not only false but it is also a barbaric and out dated way to treat other living creatures. We are all equal in this planet and no human or animal has the right to say how another living creature should be used to improve another life. You live it, we live it, you deal with it, we deal with it, our actions should be our own not another’s suffering.
In what way are "we" all equal on this planet? What on earth do you mean?
You are, I am sure, perfectly aware that animals frequently kill each other? For food, or to assert dominance over one-another? And that your body is right this moment engaged in killing living organism which are trying to invade it and might possibly kill it? And that if you eat bread or drink wine or beer or cider, a yeast died for you? And that every time you use a detergent millions of bacteria are getting it? And when you brush your teeth, likewise?
Were does this bullsht logic end? I mean, do you think slugs are "equal" to humans? Crabs? Jellyfish? Mosquitos? Cows? Tigers? Elephants? Giraffes? Earthworms? I mean, what do you even mean by equal? They're all clearly completely different. Why not worry about making equality among humans before trying to level the playing field for all the enteric parasites? It's quite obviously morally incumbent upon us all to concern ourselves with this before worrying about the fate of all the lab mice.
Do me a favour, crackpot zoophile.

[And no, I'm not advocating wanton sadism inflicted upon animals, and for the record, I do think it would be absolutely terrible if all the animals died out.]
 
afternoon bump because I want to see if any of the anti animal experiment crew have anything to say about what I've written.
I very much doubt that I somehow nailed the debate... though I'd be very happy if I had done.
 
Good reasons for alternatives.

The most significant trend in modern research in recent years has been the recognition that animals are rarely good models for the human body. Studies have shown time and again that researchers are often wasting lives, both animal and human, and precious resources by trying to infect animals with diseases that they would never normally contract. As Dr Klausner of the National Cancer Institute admitted, The history of cancer research has been a history of curing cancer in the mouse. We have cured mice of cancer for decades, and it simply didn't work in humans."

The world's most forward-thinking scientists have accepted this and moved on to other methods of studying disease. The National Cancer Institute now uses human cancer cells, taken by biopsy during surgery, to perform first-stage testing for its new anti-cancer drugs, sparing the million mice it used to use every year and giving us a much better shot at combating cancer.

TOPKAT is a software package that allows researchers to predict the oral toxicity and the degree of skin and eye irritation of chemicals. It is faster, cheaper, and more accurate than animal tests and is now used by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and the U.S. Army.

The Irritation Assay System has spared millions of animals from blinding eye- and skin-irritation tests. This simple test-tube procedure is used by many personal-care product manufacturers.

Scientists can now "grow" artificial human skin for skin grafts and for skin-irritation testing.

The reason I chose to say we are all equal is simple most of the human race has the intelligence to use alternatives and move away from abuse of animals for its own good. Sadly not all people think this way and have self preservation at heart which is true for the animal kingdom I grant you that.

But I choose to look and animal in the eye and feel better knowing that I am not and will not to the best of my knowledge and ability be helping that animal to it's death. Again this is a very personal choice and one I do not push on others so for that reason I will leave this thread at that.
 
metaljaydog said:
The National Cancer Institute now uses human cancer cells, taken by biopsy during surgery, to perform first-stage testing for its new anti-cancer drugs, sparing the million mice it used to use every year and giving us a much better shot at combating cancer.
Using cancer cells in isolation would show that cyanide was sucessful at killing cancer cells.

Do you want to volunteer to see if cyanide works on cancer cells growing in a human body? :eek: :D
 
metaljaydog said:
TOPKAT is a software package that allows researchers to predict the oral toxicity and the degree of skin and eye irritation of chemicals. It is faster, cheaper, and more accurate than animal tests and is now used by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and the U.S. Army.

The Irritation Assay System has spared millions of animals from blinding eye- and skin-irritation tests. This simple test-tube procedure is used by many personal-care product manufacturers.

So what you're saying is that where there are viable ways to reduce the use of animals in testing they are being utilised.

Doesn't fit in with the massive conspiracy theory very well does it?
 
metaljaydog said:
Good reasons for alternatives.... snip<examples of non-animal research>
Which surely shows that where possible animals are not being used.

And while I'm here, thumbs up to perplexis and his/her neuroscience examples. Often when these debates come up the role of animals in basic research (i.e. doing stuff to find out how things work as opposed to how to cure a disease in the next year), gets ignored with people focusing solely on drug testing.
 
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