Renting via Estate Agents..?

[Stoat Boy]

No, they have provided you with a tenant on a one-year contract, for which they were paid. After that time, they are doing nothing. And it's not just me saying it -- it's generally felt that Foxtons will lose their legal case because the law itself agrees with me.

Well lets see how it pans out in court but from what I know about the laws affecting agency the contract between a client and the agent is all dependant on the notion of introduction. That is the service. And if that introduction produces an income a fee is payable on that.

Well as I said, not one of the fuckers turned me down. They fell over themselves to take it, going to show that if you just don't play the negotiation on their ground but instead just completely move the goalposts before the game even starts then you can get what you want.

And as I said thats fair. If you agreed in advance to those terms then I have no problem with it other than I would not have done business with you but once again I am lucky in that I can pick and choose my clients.

 

[kabbes]

I can't believe that the issue is still legally undecided, as it happens. It all went to court AGES ago. This legal system takes so bloody long to decide anything, it's just unreal.

 

[teuchter]

Having gone through the process of renting a house recently, I can confirm that most agents try to charge anything from about £80 to £150 per tenant just to do the contract and the credit checks etc. Some charge another £100 or so to do the inventory.

This means that for a four-bed shared house they are potentially getting over £500 from the tenants plus whatever the landlord is paying them.

We found that some of them were willing to negotiate on the fees though.

When we tried to tell one agent that the fees were outrageous he got very defensive and claimed that if we saw the amount of time it takes them to check the references etc we wouldn't think so. Well, say they pay themselves £20 an hour, that would mean they spend 25 hrs doing it. I don't think so.

The agents we finally went through even complained that we gave them our reference details separately instead of all on one bit of paper.

And the contract contains typos and even (I think) half a sentence missing from the bit that specifies the break clause which will be interesting if the landlord tries to use it to get us out.

 

[kyser_soze]

What, seriously? I have never heard of this before.

Common practice. When was the last time you used a lettings agent?

 

[Stoat Boy]

Having gone through the process of renting a house recently, I can confirm that most agents try to charge anything from about £80 to £150 per tenant just to do the contract and the credit checks etc. Some charge another £100 or so to do the inventory.

This means that for a four-bed shared house they are potentially getting over £500 from the tenants plus whatever the landlord is paying them.

We found that some of them were willing to negotiate on the fees though.

When we tried to tell one agent that the fees were outrageous he got very defensive and claimed that if we saw the amount of time it takes them to check the references etc we wouldn't think so. Well, say they pay themselves £20 an hour, that would mean they spend 25 hrs doing it. I don't think so.

The agents we finally went through even complained that we gave them our reference details separately instead of all on one bit of paper.

And the contract contains typos and even (I think) half a sentence missing from the bit that specifies the break clause which will be interesting if the landlord tries to use it to get us out.

You tend to find, especially in the bigger chain agents, that the commission paid to the person you are dealing with is primarily made up from the fees charged to tenants. There are also specialised reference checking firms who pay a commission to the agents as well.

 

[kabbes]

The contracts that the agents create are often truly awful. I once saw one that was the front page of a residential tenancy stapled to the contract of a commercial tenancy. Completely hopeless.

Reference checks can be done literally via this here website. They charge £25 per applicant for an advanced check. Since it is as simple as that, an agent charging anything more than £25 per applicant is price gouging, pure and simple.

 

[kabbes]

Common practice. When was the last time you used a lettings agent?

Maybe it's a London thing. I've never been involved with letting agents outside Surrey.

As for the last time I used a lettings agent -- see earlier in this thread. That all happened 3 months ago.

 

[temper_tantrum]

I don't think you've understood the OP.

So I think it was perhaps you who didn't understand the original post?

 

[kabbes]

Oh, and you can download a decent shorthold tenancy contract from any number of law sites for about £20. Again, charging five times this (let alone five times it per tenant) is out and out profiteering.

They really shouldn't be getting away with this crap. As a landlord, I don't let them get away with it because I tell them that I don't want them to do it in the first place.

 

[kabbes]

So I think it was perhaps you who didn't understand the original post?

Nope, apparently not. So what are we going to do about it? Thankfully the thread has develped a lot from there, though, so all is not completely lost.

 

[kyser_soze]

When we rented our curernt place, the agency was only used to let the place, not a L&M, and even with that we had to stump up a holding fee to take the place off the live list (fortunately it was folded into the deposit); one place we looked at (Bushells I think) essentially wanted 1 month deposit, 6 weeks rent in advance, and their 'fees' were the equivalent of 3 weeks rent - would've cost about £2500 to move into a £900 a month flat...

 

[fogbat]

Oh, and you can download a decent shorthold tenancy contract from any number of law sites for about £20. Again, charging five times this (let alone five times it per tenant) is out and out profiteering.

They really shouldn't be getting away with this crap. As a landlord, I don't let them get away with it because I tell them that I don't want them to do it in the first place.

My old letting agent charged us around £130 (in total, rather than each) just to change a name on the contract. This was separate from the £35-ish charge per person for credit references.

This was also Bushells, and again they were just responsible for the letting.

 

[kabbes]

My old letting agent charged us around £130 (in total, rather than each) just to change a name on the contract. This was separate from the £35-ish charge per person for credit references.

This was also Bushells, and again they were just responsible for the letting.

I'd be very interested to know what rights they had to actually make that charge. You have no contract with them, as far as I know? Their contract is with the landlord and, strictly speaking, all charges should be accrued to the landlord. It may be agreed that some of them will be compensated by the tenants, who may actually simply pay for them directly, but I don't know what legal grounds the agent has to send a bill to tenants for changing a name.

Of course, the legal niceties become irrelevant because people just pay it when asked to. But still -- it's worth knowing what the actual contractual relationships are here.

 

[kabbes]

When we rented our curernt place, the agency was only used to let the place, not a L&M, and even with that we had to stump up a holding fee to take the place off the live list (fortunately it was folded into the deposit); one place we looked at (Bushells I think) essentially wanted 1 month deposit, 6 weeks rent in advance, and their 'fees' were the equivalent of 3 weeks rent - would've cost about £2500 to move into a £900 a month flat...

Monthly rent in advance isn't uncommon though, is it? We charge rent in advance rather than rent in arrears. Clearly the extra two weeks is taking the piss though, I'll give you that.

A month's deposit up front is also not unreasonable.

The rest of it is completely bullshit. I really hate letting agents with a passion.

 

[kyser_soze]

Month's rent and deposit equivalent to a months rent upfront is standard. 6 weeks rent upfront, along with fee equiv to 3 weeks rent is a piss take.

 

[teuchter]

My old letting agent charged us around £130 (in total, rather than each) just to change a name on the contract. This was separate from the £35-ish charge per person for credit references.

This was also Bushells, and again they were just responsible for the letting.

Yup, that is fairly standard practice, in my experience. And I've had situations where they've tried to charge that sort of amount x2 when we want two names changed simultaneously.

 

[teuchter]

I'd be very interested to know what rights they had to actually make that charge. You have no contract with them, as far as I know? Their contract is with the landlord and, strictly speaking, all charges should be accrued to the landlord. It may be agreed that some of them will be compensated by the tenants, who may actually simply pay for them directly, but I don't know what legal grounds the agent has to send a bill to tenants for changing a name.

Of course, the legal niceties become irrelevant because people just pay it when asked to. But still -- it's worth knowing what the actual contractual relationships are here.

I'd like to know what the actual situation is too - the whole business about changing names during the contract term seems to be very woolly - for example is the landlord able to veto new tenants if all their references check out OK (as per my thread a couple of weeks back) and also whether the agents are obliged to do it if the tenants/landlords ask them.

When we were looking at houses recently we got a lot of conflicting advice from different agencies about adding/removing names from contracts: one even tried to tell us that you'd effectively have to break the contract and start a new one. And lots of confusion about how the deposit is supposed to be dealt with in these situations.

 

[maomao]

Yup, that is fairly standard practice, in my experience. And I've had situations where they've tried to charge that sort of amount x2 when we want two names changed simultaneously.

The letting agent in my new place wanted us to pay double for two sets of references so we had to put one name only on the contract to save 115 quid.

 

[Gavin Bl]

That's way overpriced. You should ask them to justify it. They're not allowed to use legitimate fees as an income provider.

Also, arguably the landlord should be paying those fees. Particularly the inventory check. FFS, the landlord should just do the inventory check themselves. Why's some crappy agent going to do a better job at it, let along justify charging £130 for it?

Apparently the inventory is a much bigger job now, photos of the condition of things, and stuff like that.

It is alot, but for me, the property is an ideal solution for a particular issue (i.e I only want a 3 month let) - so I'm going to pass on picking a fight with the agent.

 

[kabbes]

They price-gouge left, right and centre. Unfortunately, however, it seems that a lot of people simply don't do internet searches for privately offered properties. We had a website that consistently came top of Google searches for all the most obvious possibilities and although we got an awful lot of equiries about short-term lets (which were very useful for filling in voids) and one memorable phone call from someone asking us if we would let his flat for him, we didn't get a great deal of interest for straightforward shorthold tenancies. The agencies were much more reliable in that regard.

 

[kabbes]

Apparently the inventory is a much bigger job now, photos of the condition of things, and stuff like that.

No, it's really not a bigger job. We did ours three months ago and it is a fully furnished flat with a fully stocked set of kitchen equipment, yet it only took ten minutes in advance to make a list of everything in the flat with its condition and then five minutes on the scene to take a few photos and get the tenant to sign the list. It's not a big job by any means.

Mind you, my attitude is that I wouldn't withhold any deposit unless things had really seriously been fucked up, so I'm probably not so anal about recording every little scratch on something.

It is alot, but for me, the property is an ideal solution for a particular issue (i.e I only want a 3 month let) - so I'm going to pass on picking a fight with the agent

Shame. Picking fights with agents is one of life's great experiences.

 

[Gavin Bl]

Shame. Picking fights with agents is one of life's great experiences.

Yeah but it would really mess up my 'exchanging on sale of my house, need somewhere to live (with wife and 3 kids), for just a couple of months, while I hang on for voluntary redundancy at a semi-nationalised bank, before jumping ship and moving across the country' experience.

 

[Choc]

so i just spoke to the foxtons guy

basically its 320 plus vat intial fee

then 6 weeks rent deposit (which goes into a government account)

then 80 pound each year for the renewal of the contract (i feel that is a real rip off)

if we wanted to get out before the break out clause (1 year) they would put the flat back on the market but we were still liable to pay a penalty which would look at the remaining time of the contract. in our case if we moved out after 8 month it would be 370£ plus vat (what should this shit vat always be....make the number sound better..?)

after the break close period we would still have to give 2 month notice

the intial rent is 850 for a two bedroom which is not that much for london but i am worried the landlady will increase the rent each year.

They price-gouge left, right and centre. Unfortunately, however, it seems that a lot of people simply don't do internet searches for privately offered properties.

I'd so much rather have a private landlord but...there seem to be only very few around and tbh those often think the world of their flats and also want to have quite a lot of rent.

 

[Badgers]

There are a lot about
You just have to look harder if you have time

 

[kabbes]

Choc, tell them to fuck themselves. Really, literally tell them that. Then tell them to show you the contract that you signed that entitles them to throw these fees at you.

Then tell them what you WILL pay, which is a holding fee that will be offset against a single month's deposit, £25 per applicant for reference checks and not one bean more. Tell them that they can charge the landlord for the contract. Tell them that they are having a laugh if they think they have any legal right whatsoever to charge you £80 a year for renewal. They're talking out of their arse.

Believe me, I've spent an awful lot of time on this crap in the last year. I know what I'm talking about.

They'll fold like a pack of cards if presented with an assertive individual that knows the law and knows what they want. You hold all the aces -- you are offering to take this flat off the market and present them with a nice juicy landlord's fee. They should not expect anything else.

And if they won't go for it then walk away and find a flat with better terms attached. The place is riddled with them.

 

[Sadken]

Kabbes is bang on.

 

[kabbes]

And ken's a lawyer so HE KNOWS.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Apologies for ranting a little but this thread has got me thinking.

Is there any other legitimate business in the world in which all parties involved seem to start out with such a mutual loathing and mistrust of each other ?

Even the language used in it is arcane and implies all sorts of thing in terms of the relationship between each other where as it should really just be like any other commercial transaction in which you have a supplier of goods (the Landlord), the customer (the tenant) and on occasion the Agents who make the introductions.

Been in the business for over 20 years and for somebody with no formal qualifications its been good to me but this thread has made me realise that what I am finding increasingly horrendous about it is that everybody concerned seems to dislike the other. Landlords don’t trust tenants and visa versa. Landlords and tenants dislike Agents who have, on the whole, nothing but contempt for both of them as well. Government treats is as a dart board in which to throw ever increasing amounts of legislation at which seem to help nobody and just mess things up even more but enables them to peddle this myth of big bad landlords and poor put upon tenants when in my experience its usually the other way around (although I am fussy who I deal with and in my experience landlords who pick agents based on the lowest fees tend to be those who are the worst when it comes to looking after a property once tenants are in )

As a business model is works on many levels not least of which is that you don’t have the cash flow problems that many others encounter ( in 20 years I have been knocked for under £2000 and in both cases managed to get recompense through other means) but I cannot think of another in which the levels of over-all customer satisfaction are lower.

I have been thinking about getting out for a long long time but this thread has provided me with the final nail in the coffin for it because of the way everybody seems to react to it including me who has found myself despising several posters for no other reason than that’s just how the business is.

In every one of those 20 years I have made a profit, have a massive amount of return business and get almost all my new business through referrals so I must be doing something right but there has never been real job satisfaction and for the first time I can see why. Residential lettings must be the area of business activity that has the lowest amount of total customer satisfaction when viewed as an over all transaction. And that’s quite soul destroying.

 

[maomao]

Apologies for ranting a little but this thread has got me thinking.

Is there any other legitimate business in the world in which all parties involved seem to start out with such a mutual loathing and mistrust of each other ?

Even the language used in it is arcane and implies all sorts of thing in terms of the relationship between each other where as it should really just be like any other commercial transaction in which you have a supplier of goods (the Landlord), the customer (the tenant) and on occasion the Agents who make the introductions.

Been in the business for over 20 years and for somebody with no formal qualifications its been good to me but this thread has made me realise that what I am finding increasingly horrendous about it is that everybody concerned seems to dislike the other. Landlords don’t trust tenants and visa versa. Landlords and tenants dislike Agents who have, on the whole, nothing but contempt for both of them as well. Government treats is as a dart board in which to throw ever increasing amounts of legislation at which seem to help nobody and just mess things up even more but enables them to peddle this myth of big bad landlords and poor put upon tenants when in my experience its usually the other way around (although I am fussy who I deal with and in my experience landlords who pick agents based on the lowest fees tend to be those who are the worst when it comes to looking after a property once tenants are in )

As a business model is works on many levels not least of which is that you don’t have the cash flow problems that many others encounter ( in 20 years I have been knocked for under £2000 and in both cases managed to get recompense through other means) but I cannot think of another in which the levels of over-all customer satisfaction are lower.

I have been thinking about getting out for a long long time but this thread has provided me with the final nail in the coffin for it because of the way everybody seems to react to it including me who has found myself despising several posters for no other reason than that’s just how the business is.

In every one of those 20 years I have made a profit, have a massive amount of return business and get almost all my new business through referrals so I must be doing something right but there has never been real job satisfaction and for the first time I can see why. Residential lettings must be the area of business activity that has the lowest amount of total customer satisfaction when viewed as an over all transaction. And that’s quite soul destroying.

It's because the whole concept of landlordism is basically evil. If someone bought up all the food from Tescos and sold it on to the population at vastly inflated prices they would be quite rightly hanging from a tree within 24 hours, however it is completely acceptable to do this with housing. A buy to let landlord is not a solution to the fact that I can't afford to buy housing in London, he's the reason I can't. Letting agents similarly produce nothing of use to the community or society, all you do is screw cash from people who have little choice. If I had a child who worked in your business I'd disown them.

 

[Stoat Boy]

It's because the whole concept of landlordism is basically evil. If someone bought up all the food from Tescos and sold it on to the population at vastly inflated prices they would be quite rightly hanging from a tree within 24 hours, however it is completely acceptable to do this with housing. A buy to let landlord is not a solution to the fact that I can't afford to buy housing in London, he's the reason I can't. Letting agents similarly produce nothing of use to the community or society, all you do is screw cash from people who have little choice. If I had a child who worked in your business I'd disown them.

That just a load of urbanite bollocks. And you want to buy a property so that you can sit back a make a nice little profit without doing anything.

If you said that all property should be owned collectively and we are all just tenants then I could respect that but essentially you dont like things as they are because you are finding it difficult to get a slice of the cake, not because you dont like the cake in the first place.