Remind me again why I teach...

[nonamenopackdrill]

that school sounds appaling.

the senior management team is everything when it comes to discipline, and discipline is almost everything in teaching.

speak to your line mAnager, your mentor and your union rep. make it clear that you cannot work without support from the SMT.

any child bringing a knife into my school would get at few days' exclusion.

sweetie - it does sound godawful. see your rep tommorrow, promise?

I don't agree with the second sentence. Discipline is the responsibility of the person dealing with it - but they need support. Passing something on is seen as a sign of weakness. If it's your problem, you need to be involved in the resolution.

I also fundamentally disagree that discipline is everything. Have you never seen a crap teacher have his kids scared and doing nothing. That's not a good teacher. Interesting lessons lead to good discipline - though of course behaviour management techniques are crucial - especially techniques that don't interrupt learning.

I think you're right about speaking to the line manager and even SLT. Tell them how you're feeling. And the most important person is the NQT mentor I think - who I hope is on SLT - who can fight tf's corner!

 

[treefrog]

Sorry to hear this treefrog, it sounds like a right 'mare.

We love you though, so everything is alright again.

The weird thing is, I get on really well with the kids that the school has pretty much written off, the ones who've been expelled from other places and think there's no point in learning any more.

Maybe I should be doing a (slightly) different job?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

brownies honour. Line manager was really good about it today, but I think it's time that I started making some noise about the complete discipline breakdown. thing is though, I've only been in the school a month and I don't want to get a label as one of those "difficult" people...

Spangles, you're a godsend

You get labelled as 'difficult' ime, if you don't do your job and demand others do it for you.

If you're doing your job and asking for help to do it better - including support and time - then you'll not be labelled as difficult (I think).
Good luck!

 

[tangerinedream]

The weird thing is, I get on really well with the kids that the school has pretty much written off, the ones who've been expelled from other places and think there's no point in learning any more.

Maybe I should be doing a (slightly) different job?

That's a tremendous achievment for your first month, to feel that. A lot of people are terrified of those kinds of kids - In the place I work, people are terrified of GCSE resit students, even though half the time, they are the most fun to teach

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

That's a tremendous achievment for your first month, to feel that. A lot of people are terrified of those kinds of kids - In the place I work, people are terrified of GCSE resit students, even though half the time, they are the most fun to teach

Agree with this. Great post.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Oh hon, only just seen this.

So sorry the term is going badly - unfortunately not being in that environment I don't think there's any advice I can give, so I'll leave that to those who can and hope it helps. But I just want to say

(((treefrog)))

And Bob Marleys Dad is right about this...

We love you though, so everything is alright again.

And lastly, what's a HOF because it makes me think of this guy?

(sorry, I was meant to be offering you support wasn't I, not freaking you out! )

Also agree with tangerinedream and nonamenopackdrill re: your post above.

 

[John Quays]

I'm a teacher because it became clear that I was making choices that led me in that direction and because I'd been a language assistant in my 3rd year and because I was too idle and stubborn to research any other type of job. I also felt it was a 'virtuous' choice in some way, but that's 24 year-old hotheaded graduates for you.

I'm a teacher in France now because my ladyfriend is French but also because you have a maximum of 18 (+2 at head's discretion) hours, are in school only when you have class and the discipline and so forth in this authoritarian country make it less stressful than at home.

But this afternoon I screwed up a lesson and came home announcing that all I know how to do is wing it on force of personality with weak students, and that I have no idea how to actually teach (like impart knowledge, or improve abilities, or facilitate learning or whatever).

However Treefrog, I don't know why you're a teacher.

 

[tangerinedream]

You get labelled as 'difficult' ime, if you don't do your job and demand others do it for you.

If you're doing your job and asking for help to do it better - including support and time - then you'll not be labelled as difficult (I think).
Good luck!

I had a few 'tantrums' in my first year and am not labelled as difficult as far as I know. I think I am vaguely apreciated sometimes for being reliable and trying to be constructive.

Often, you need to work out which member of staff you can talk to - I was lucky in that my old line manager was very supportive and human, and accepted what I had to say in criticism of where I worked as valid.

I think also a good school goes out of it's way to listen to NQT's as they are very useful indicators of the way things are - having kind of an outsiders eye on the procedures and policies and everything that becomes ingrained and 'the way it is'

So in a sense, you really are doing them a favour by critiquing the situation and pointing out where you think you have been failed.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

I had a few 'tantrums' in my first year and am not labelled as difficult as far as I know. I think I am vaguely apreciated sometimes for being reliable and trying to be constructive.

Often, you need to work out which member of staff you can talk to - I was lucky in that my old line manager was very supportive and human, and accepted what I had to say in criticism of where I worked as valid.

I think also a good school goes out of it's way to listen to NQT's as they are very useful indicators of the way things are - having kind of an outsiders eye on the procedures and policies and everything that becomes ingrained and 'the way it is'

So in a sense, you really are doing them a favour by critiquing the situation and pointing out where you think you have been failed.

Absolutely. I agree with almost everything you post!

 

[tangerinedream]

all I know how to do is wing it on force of personality with weak students, and that I have no idea how to actually teach (like impart knowledge, or improve abilities, or facilitate learning or whatever).

That's me!

I can imagine saying to ofsted:- Actually I know fuck all about anything to do with bits of paper and strategies, but I can do funny voices and act out the whole of macbeth in 30 seconds in language they understand.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

That's me!

I can imagine saying to ofsted:- Actually I know fuck all about anything to do with bits of paper and strategies, but I can do funny voices and act out the whole of macbeth in 30 seconds in language they understand.

If you could stick that on paper for them then do it they'll love it.

 

[treefrog]

That's me!

I can imagine saying to ofsted:- Actually I know fuck all about anything to do with bits of paper and strategies, but I can do funny voices and act out the whole of macbeth in 30 seconds in language they understand.

 

[spanglechick]

I don't agree with the second sentence. Discipline is the responsibility of the person dealing with it - but they need support. Passing something on is seen as a sign of weakness. If it's your problem, you need to be involved in the resolution.

I also fundamentally disagree that discipline is everything. Have you never seen a crap teacher have his kids scared and doing nothing. That's not a good teacher. Interesting lessons lead to good discipline - though of course behaviour management techniques are crucial - especially techniques that don't interrupt learning.

I think you're right about speaking to the line manager and even SLT. Tell them how you're feeling. And the most important person is the NQT mentor I think - who I hope is on SLT - who can fight tf's corner!

in the last five years, through actor workshopping, supply placements etc, i have worked in over 100 different uk schools - and i will tell you this: you can tell the ethos of the school within five minutes of walking through the doors. and it varies, massively.

imo a good SMT backs up teachers and has clearly demarcated standards that no kid can get away with crossing for any teacher.

I fundamentally disgree with your philosophy that referring serious discipline (or academic) problems upwards is "weak". It gives the pupil and their parents the unequivocal message that the school as a whole backs the teacher and the school as a whole finds the behaviour or whatever unacceptable. Lowly classroom teachers are often written off by pupils and parents as "having it in for" or "picking on" someone, or even being professionally incompetant.

the message in serious cases has to come cohesively and clearly. from the top.

it doesn't make the teacher seem weak - it makes the teacher seem like they have the whole schooll behind them, and that if you go against him/her, you will have to deal with the whole school. One teacher, phoning from a noisy staffroom during a snatched lunchbreak does not sound so strong, and certainly, IME, doesn't feel it.


on your other point, maybe you and i understand the word "discipline" differently.

my lessons are disciplined - and i know because my children have too much respect to do anything too disruptive or out of order. Because if their phone goes off, they hand it over without arguing - even though they know it will go in the safe for three months. Because when i tell them to sort their uniform out before the can come in, they do it. And sall this with a smile on my lips and never a voice raised.

That discipline allows me to teach interseting, dynamic lessons. A kid said to me last term, "we know we can't get away with anything with you" and yet they often tell me that they "really enjoyed that lesson" - bingo! that's success for me. And it's about having good discipline. And if a kid does cross the line in a minotr way, i deal with it. And if they do so repeatedly or very very disruptively, my HOD does. And if it's a real issue (aggressive language toward me etc) then it goes higher. documented for the kid's record every step of the way.

at my school if a kid gets more than 15 detentions in a term, or 35 in the year, they get a day's internal suspension and parents/carers have to come in for an interview.

That's excellent, IMPO.

 

[treefrog]

To be fair Spangles, he did say it was seen as weak, not actual weakness

 

[spanglechick]

That's me!

I can imagine saying to ofsted:- Actually I know fuck all about anything to do with bits of paper and strategies, but I can do funny voices and act out the whole of macbeth in 30 seconds in language they understand.

oh god - my hatred of the regimentation of teching is so strong. Assessment for learning, compulsorary starters and plenaries. Learning objectives always on the board... APP

It's built on sound ideas - there's excellent stuff in it, but the idea that if a lesson doesn't jump through certain hoops it can't be ofsted-good is for shit. My lessons aren't worse since i started hoop-jumping, but the actual good stuff is significantly shorter.

 

[spanglechick]

To be fair Spangles, he did say it was seen as weak, not actual weakness

but seen as week by whom? - because, as i said - if parents and kids only hear your lone voice, they can write you off. the HOD/SMT dealing with it and saying that is not acceptable at this school is un-ignorable.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

in the last five years, through actor workshopping, supply placements etc, i have worked in over 100 different uk schools - and i will tell you this: you can tell the ethos of the school within five minutes of walking through the doors. and it varies, massively.

imo a good SMT backs up teachers and has clearly demarcated standards that no kid can get away with crossing for any teacher.

I fundamentally disgree with your philosophy that referring serious discipline (or academic) problems upwards is "weak". It gives the pupil and their parents the unequivocal message that the school as a whole backs the teacher and the school as a whole finds the behaviour or whatever unacceptable. Lowly classroom teachers are often written off by pupils and parents as "having it in for" or "picking on" someone, or even being professionally incompetant.

the message in serious cases has to come cohesively and clearly. from the top.

it doesn't make the teacher seem weak - it makes the teacher seem like they have the whole schooll behind them, and that if you go against him/her, you will have to deal with the whole school. One teacher, phoning from a noisy staffroom during a snatched lunchbreak does not sound so strong, and certainly, IME, doesn't feel it.


on your other point, maybe you and i understand the word "discipline" differently.

my lessons are disciplined - and i know because my children have too much respect to do anything too disruptive or out of order. Because if their phone goes off, they hand it over without arguing - even though they know it will go in the safe for three months. Because when i tell them to sort their uniform out before the can come in, they do it. And sall this with a smile on my lips and never a voice raised.

That discipline allows me to teach interseting, dynamic lessons. A kid said to me last term, "we know we can't get away with anything with you" and yet they often tell me that they "really enjoyed that lesson" - bingo! that's success for me. And it's about having good discipline. And if a kid does cross the line in a minotr way, i deal with it. And if they do so repeatedly or very very disruptively, my HOD does. And if it's a real issue (aggressive language toward me etc) then it goes higher. documented for the kid's record every step of the way.

at my school if a kid gets more than 15 detentions in a term, or 35 in the year, they get a day's internal suspension and parents/carers have to come in for an interview.

That's excellent, IMPO.

See, I'm not claiming that you're wrong about your lessons. That's great. What I am claiming is that 'passing it on' is weakness. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe every training course on behaviour management is wrong, but not in my experience.

A student tells me to sod off, I tell them "ok, now sit down and get on with it" - after the lesson is a different matter, and the kids know it.

When I was a young teacher, if I needed my HOD/HOF/HOY support I made sure I was involved. I didn't pass it on - I'd say "I'm inviting the parents in for an interview and I'd like you to be there - when are you available" - because then it's me sorting it out, and it's me that has to teach them the week after.

If they ever got a senior teacher detention, I wouldn't leave it as 'they're dealt with' - but I'd go to the detention to ensure they resolved the situation with me.

If a student is placed in inclusion, or whatever, because of my lesson, I'd make sure I visited for 20 minutes, to resolve the situation - so they knew it was my sanction - not the SLTs.

It sounds like you do take responsibility in your learning environment which is great. For experienced teachers they can (often) do that - but others don't.

I agree with you on SLT being visible and supportive. I think that the best behaviour managers use SLT or their line managers as support rather than passing stuff upwards.

The typical example of a teacher who does pass something upwards is one that calls someone more senior because the whole class is playing up - then expects them to shout at the class for a while (or not shout). The class will say whatever that person requests of them for the time they are there. Will behave when they're in the room, but the minute they've gone, it starts again. That's excusable in the first year or two, but it isn't a good strategy.

It's the same thing as threatening something and not following through. If it happens in your classroom, it has to be you that deals with it (with support or not).

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

To be fair Spangles, he did say it was seen as weak, not actual weakness

I'm saying the 'clients' see it as weakness.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

but seen as week by whom? - because, as i said - if parents and kids only hear your lone voice, they can write you off. the HOD/SMT dealing with it and saying that is not acceptable at this school is un-ignorable.

I agree with this. Though the parents usually don't. What I'm saying is that if you refer something, make sure you are involved still - don't pass it along.

The student will do whatever you like in front of their head of year, but if you're not there, the connection isn't there.

 

[tangerinedream]

If you could stick that on paper for them then do it they'll love it.

It's a spontanious thing darling.... I'm an artist don't you know, not a performing seal...



You have a good point in that come inspections, excellent teachers become panicy and stop doing what makes them good teachers. I certainly wouldn't suggest I'm a good teacher. My kids tell me I am sometimes, but my value added scores don't....

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

oh god - my hatred of the regimentation of teching is so strong. Assessment for learning, compulsorary starters and plenaries. Learning objectives always on the board... APP

It's built on sound ideas - there's excellent stuff in it, but the idea that if a lesson doesn't jump through certain hoops it can't be ofsted-good is for shit. My lessons aren't worse since i started hoop-jumping, but the actual good stuff is significantly shorter.

This I agree with. AfL and (our) 7 part lesson plan are tools to train imo, but heaven forbid we stop good teachers doing what they do best.

Fortunately, OFSTED are actually getting that message. If you do the business in terms of results (VA and CVA), the rest is largely unimportant. We use AfL and lesson planning to increase those things, not to jump hoops.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

It's a spontanious thing darling.... I'm an artist don't you know, not a performing seal...



You have a good point in that come inspections, excellent teachers become panicy and stop doing what makes them good teachers. I certainly wouldn't suggest I'm a good teacher. My kids tell me I am sometimes, but my value added scores don't....

As a senior leader I'd be having a chat with you about 'impact'.

We are in the top 100 most improved schools at KS3 but add no value at KS4! WTF!

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Sorry tf, your thread has descended into a (relevant) discussion on behaviour management and a tiny bit of pedagogy.

The latter is going to be the big new strategy thing btw. Which is good imo.

 

[tangerinedream]

As a senior leader I'd be having a chat with you about 'impact'.

We are in the top 100 most improved schools at KS3 but add no value at KS4! WTF!

'impact'?

(what I said was a joke - the first bit if that's what made you go !)

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

'impact'?

(what I said was a joke - the first bit if that's what made you go !)

What? You are a performing seal?

 

[tangerinedream]

This I agree with. AfL and (our) 7 part lesson plan are tools to train imo, but heaven forbid we stop good teachers doing what they do best.

Fortunately, OFSTED are actually getting that message. If you do the business in terms of results (VA and CVA), the rest is largely unimportant. We use AfL and lesson planning to increase those things, not to jump hoops.

Very true. Our least ofsted friendly teacher in theory (a gnarled old bloke with a rod of iron and a hatred of paperwork) always gets lauded as wonderful, cos his kids pass and his value added is through the roof - every year.

 

[tangerinedream]

What? You are a performing seal?

arf arf.

No, but partly I truly believe that good teaching is spontanious and a spacious but well thought out framework is the key to student involvement. If you are so rigid about what you want to get out of them, you a) never take any joy in their work and b) become a control freak and your lessons are shit.

I do alway write up targets and very often do a plenary, but I like to keep them very open targets and use that time to wake them up and gauge the class. What I do next (or more importantly how I do it) sometimes changes from what I originally thought I was going to do if I think it is more effective given the mood, time of day etc.

My best (most effective) lesson this week was pure improvisation when I saw the blank looks of students. The best bit was, for me - it was also my easiest and the one in which they were most active.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

arf arf.

No, but partly I truly believe that good teaching is spontanious and a spacious but well thought out framework is the key to student involvement. If you are so rigid about what you want to get out of them, you a) never take any joy in their work and b) become a control freak and your lessons are shit.

I do alway write up targets and very often do a plenary, but I like to keep them very open targets and use that time to wake them up and gauge the class. What I do next (or more importantly how I do it) sometimes changes from what I originally thought I was going to do if I think it is more effective given the mood, time of day etc.

My best (most effective) lesson this week was pure improvisation when I saw the blank looks of students. The best bit was, for me - it was also my easiest and the one in which they were most active.

I agree with you 100% in your first paragraph.

I like the second.

The third happens all the time, but does not mean that a plan doesn't make teaching (and hence learning) better.

I hate the idea that if you can control the class everything is ok, when in reality half of controlling the class is ensuring they are interested in what you are doing.

 

[tangerinedream]

I agree with you 100% in your first paragraph.

I like the second.

The third happens all the time, but does not mean that a plan doesn't make teaching (and hence learning) better.

I hate the idea that if you can control the class everything is ok, when in reality half of controlling the class is ensuring they are interested in what you are doing.

Yes, I agree with that. I think it's just that inspection and observation often seems to cherish the plan most of all and there is a (probably false) belief that ofsted will punish you from diverting from the plan. In my experience they have praised me for adapting the plan mid lesson.

I would never advocate not planning, just that adaptability is very important - and ramming the plan home at all costs is sometimes what it seems you have to do.

I also agree 100 percent with the last thing you say. Nothing makes me more miserable than the idea that my lesson is boring and boredom brings with it the behaviour that alleviates boredom. I think too, a lot of teachers have little experience of being 'naughty' themselves - and it seems to me that a lot of really good ones I have met have.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Yes, I agree with that. I think it's just that inspection and observation often seems to cherish the plan most of all and there is a (probably false) belief that ofsted will punish you from diverting from the plan. In my experience they have praised me for adapting the plan mid lesson.

I would never advocate not planning, just that adaptability is very important - and ramming the plan home at all costs is sometimes what it seems you have to do.

I also agree 100 percent with the last thing you say. Nothing makes me more miserable than the idea that my lesson is boring and boredom brings with it the behaviour that alleviates boredom. I think too, a lot of teachers have little experience of being 'naughty' themselves - and it seems to me that a lot of really good ones I have met have.

Yeah, I'm one of those that when it's quiet and they're working, I'm desperate to interrupt them. It's hard to resist.