Religion n politics

[fela fan]

I'm afraid I don't see spirtuality as a weapon, ETA nor do I believe that nothing matters.

Yeah, well i don't either. That's why i said it was a tool, and not a weapon.

As for nothing matters, it's not about belief. Either you accept it as fact, or you don't, there's no half-way house of believing involved. Try exploring it, try thinking of contexts where it might be true. You never know, you might be unexpectedly delighted with the results. Certainly as far as i'm concerned, when i can live according to 'nothing matters', then i have totally rid myself of all suffering. And that is a sweet result man.

Spirituality is the only thing individuals have at their disposal to negate the crimes and lies and bullshit of politicians.

 

[fela fan]

Why's that Phil?

I'll answer for him, i'm sure he'll put me right if i'm talking out of turn.

Religion, for it to be the good it was always meant to be, is a personal affair, is completely an individual thing. The moment it gets organised you have other people telling you how to live. In that moment it ceases to be religion, hence the oxymoron.

The moment religion gets organised, it has become politics in a sheep's clothing.

 

[fela fan]

Tbh, I have quite a bit of sympathy with the idea that nothing really matters, - after all it's the last line of bohemian rhapsody, so it must be true.

But, you're probably aware that from time to time people starve or freeze to death on the streets of big cities, and presumably it matters to them, while it's happening, - and if it were to happen to you, I suppose it would probably matter to you, even if it didn't matter to anyone else. Of course, maybe, the truth is that this never happens to anyone who has any redeeming features, - it would be comforting to think so, - but I've no idea whether it's true or not. Maybe all these things that matter to individuals don't really matter, - but from what viewpoint are you imagining making the judgement they don't matter.?

A little bit of flexible interpretation is needed mate. Of course, if i'm not getting my next meal, or i am getting cold through lack of shelter, then a shit load does indeed matter!

So let me literally state things that i thought would be taken as understood: once we have our food, clothing, and shelter, only then can we afford to say 'nothing matters'. This situation really applies to just about every westerner, ie the basics in life are a taken.

Now, once those basic three criteria are in place, it will help one navigate their lives tremendously if they can say "nothing matters" as often as possible. As you seem to have recognised. Let me add two things to try and exemplify further:

we are mere dots on the landscape of time.

take yourself off to the mountains, where all you can see around you, 360 degrees, is mountains, near and far, in all directions. No other people, just mountains and the noises of nature. Nothing matters man...

The phrase is almost impossible to live by all the time, we live in societies. But, however, by aiming to live by it as much as possible, it reminds us to take life non-seriously, to treat it as a journey of laughs. It is meant as a phrase to help guide us through our journeys, and to not get too fixated on the destination otherwise we lose sight of the journey. And in our lives we spend much more time on the journeys than arriving at our projected destinations.

I don't care is similarly rooted. If i can not care about external events, i can avoid suffering. That is very good news indeed...

 

[gosub]

Yeah, well i don't either. That's why i said it was a tool, and not a weapon.

As for nothing matters, it's not about belief. Either you accept it as fact, or you don't, there's no half-way house of believing involved. Try exploring it, try thinking of contexts where it might be true. You never know, you might be unexpectedly delighted with the results. Certainly as far as i'm concerned, when i can live according to 'nothing matters', then i have totally rid myself of all suffering. And that is a sweet result man.

Spirituality is the only thing individuals have at their disposal to negate the crimes and lies and bullshit of politicians.

You actually said it was a "tool for fighting", these are generally called weapons.

I have more time for existentialism than I do nihilism

 

[Demosthenes]

A little bit of flexible interpretation is needed mate. Of course, if i'm not getting my next meal, or i am getting cold through lack of shelter, then a shit load does indeed matter!

So let me literally state things that i thought would be taken as understood: once we have our food, clothing, and shelter, only then can we afford to say 'nothing matters'. This situation really applies to just about every westerner, ie the basics in life are a taken.
.

Right, so, when you say - nothing matters - do you mean, -nothing matters except the things that matter, - or do you mean, nothing matters, so long as you've got enough money, - or do you mean, nothing matters to you, because you've got enough money? Or do you mean something else?

 

[Jambooboo]

I'll answer for him, i'm sure he'll put me right if i'm talking out of turn.

Religion, for it to be the good it was always meant to be, is a personal affair, is completely an individual thing. The moment it gets organised you have other people telling you how to live. In that moment it ceases to be religion, hence the oxymoron.

The moment religion gets organised, it has become politics in a sheep's clothing.

But for a religion to have initially spread there must have been some kind of organised and ordered movement. And don't many religions state the necessity of communal activity ie. shared taking of the eucharist within Christianity?

 

[fela fan]

Right, so, when you say - nothing matters - do you mean, -nothing matters except the things that matter, - or do you mean, nothing matters, so long as you've got enough money, - or do you mean, nothing matters to you, because you've got enough money? Or do you mean something else?

Start from the position that you have your food clothing and shelter, the basics in life to achieve the basic level of security (maslow's triangle).

Now, from there you live your life. Shit happens, good things happen. We are slaves to the happenings in life, we react to what happens. If we are lucky something good happens, and we feel good for a wee time. If we are unlucky, something bad happens, and we feel bad.

But, if nothing matters, than we take the good and the bad with equal non-reaction. We recognise that things happen, and that we don't have to feel bad in reaction to the bad things. If it doesn't matter, then it can't be bad.

 

[gosub]

So your idea of believing in nothing is the abandonment of marketing theory

 

[fela fan]

So your idea of believing in nothing is the abandonment of marketing theory

Well i'm not sure, coz i don't know what that is.

But believing in things is a complete waste of time. Faith too.

 

[Demosthenes]

Do people waste a lot of time believing in things? It doesn't seem to take any time at all to me. Or effort.

Start from the position that you have your food clothing and shelter, the basics in life to achieve the basic level of security (maslow's triangle).

Now, from there you live your life. Shit happens, good things happen. We are slaves to the happenings in life, we react to what happens. If we are lucky something good happens, and we feel good for a wee time. If we are unlucky, something bad happens, and we feel bad.

But, if nothing matters, than we take the good and the bad with equal non-reaction. We recognise that things happen, and that we don't have to feel bad in reaction to the bad things. If it doesn't matter, then it can't be bad.

Well that's probably good advice. But the thing about detachment that I sometimes find a bit ironic is, - the thought of the tibetans sitting on the mountains, cultivating detachment, - far above the rest of the world, unaffected by its politics, until in the middle of the twentieth century, their meditation was rudely interrupted by the chinese army knocking on the door, saying, wake up, it's the twentieth century. Which could be described as the karma of their detachment.

So, it sounds as if you're saying nothing matters except the things that matter, (maslow's triangle), . But if you agree that there are things that matter, then; if you've got everything you need; is the issue of other people's access to or lack of these basic things, any concern of yours? Does it matter to you? Does it matter, apart from to the people who don't have these things, or who struggle continually to have them? And at this point in time, it seems like the obvious answer is that it doesn't. But maybe it should. It did seem to matter once. And I reckon from a lot of peoples point of view, it's quite difficult to achieve even basic security without a continual struggle, and that's because of the unfair distribution of wealth, and enforcement of unjust laws. The way I see it, it makes sense for these people to try and use the political system to legislate so that the place they live is theirs, and they don't have to pay anyone for it - (mainly because people are generally nicer when they're not stressed, and if they've got the chance to take the time to stand back and stop just reacting, they can live their lives better) And then I'd hope the people who don't find things a struggle, might want to help them, rather than just say it doesn't matter. But that's just in theory, - in practice, I'm not sure there is any useful attempt going on to change things through the political system. Apparently we only get one chance every thirty years or so to change things, (someone told me this in 1999),. I don't know why this should be, but, yes, maybe it's just delusional to think there's any point in getting involved in politics in the mean time. But the thing is, if your idea that politics is a waste of time, energy, and spiritually all wrong, catches on like it's an eternal truth, then it probably won't matter even if we do get a chance to change things every thirty years or so, - when the chance comes round, everyone'll probably say, no, politics is just a waste of time, go with the flow, man, and miss it.

 

[gosub]

Well i'm not sure, coz i don't know what that is.

But believing in things is a complete waste of time. Faith too.

Maslow, whilst he was a psychologist, marketing exams spend more time on his heirarchy of needs than we ever did in psych classes.


How do you differentiate between being awake and asleep?

 

[fudgefactorfive]

What role does religion play in politics?

it fucks it up, just like everything else it touches

What role does politics play in religion?

makes it fucking tedious and occasionally lethal, just like everywhere else it occurs

Do you think someone running for the white house can win without being religious at any bit?

do i look like i give a shit?

How can religion help or hinder a politician?

money is quite helpful. being napalmed, less so.

Where should the line be drawn between religion and politics?

across the carotid artery

 

[nosos]

http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Disbelief-Stephen-L-Carter/dp/0385474989

I can't recommend this book highly enough to anyone interested in a Christian perspective on this issue.

 

[fela fan]

Do people waste a lot of time believing in things? It doesn't seem to take any time at all to me. Or effort.



Well that's probably good advice. But the thing about detachment that I sometimes find a bit ironic is, - the thought of the tibetans sitting on the mountains, cultivating detachment, - far above the rest of the world, unaffected by its politics, until in the middle of the twentieth century, their meditation was rudely interrupted by the chinese army knocking on the door, saying, wake up, it's the twentieth century. Which could be described as the karma of their detachment.

So, it sounds as if you're saying nothing matters except the things that matter, (maslow's triangle), . But if you agree that there are things that matter, then; if you've got everything you need; is the issue of other people's access to or lack of these basic things, any concern of yours? Does it matter to you? Does it matter, apart from to the people who don't have these things, or who struggle continually to have them? And at this point in time, it seems like the obvious answer is that it doesn't. But maybe it should. It did seem to matter once. And I reckon from a lot of peoples point of view, it's quite difficult to achieve even basic security without a continual struggle, and that's because of the unfair distribution of wealth, and enforcement of unjust laws. The way I see it, it makes sense for these people to try and use the political system to legislate so that the place they live is theirs, and they don't have to pay anyone for it - (mainly because people are generally nicer when they're not stressed, and if they've got the chance to take the time to stand back and stop just reacting, they can live their lives better) And then I'd hope the people who don't find things a struggle, might want to help them, rather than just say it doesn't matter. But that's just in theory, - in practice, I'm not sure there is any useful attempt going on to change things through the political system. Apparently we only get one chance every thirty years or so to change things, (someone told me this in 1999),. I don't know why this should be, but, yes, maybe it's just delusional to think there's any point in getting involved in politics in the mean time. But the thing is, if your idea that politics is a waste of time, energy, and spiritually all wrong, catches on like it's an eternal truth, then it probably won't matter even if we do get a chance to change things every thirty years or so, - when the chance comes round, everyone'll probably say, no, politics is just a waste of time, go with the flow, man, and miss it.

I say nothing matters, not to do nothing, but to act as a kind of protection if you like. Detachment that you talk about is entirely different to what i'm talking about. You kind of hit the nail in the middle there by saying that those who aren't stressed can be nicer people. By doing your best to avoid reacting to the negative shit that happens, and this is done by living by the mantra 'nothing matters', then one is a content person, so one can enjoy their lives a whole heap better, and just as importantly for society and the general well-being of humans, that person can be of genuine help to others.

'Nothing matters' is also a recognition that we need to live the life of what happens, of what is, rather than what we think should happen, or what we think should be.

So when i say nothing matters, it doesn't mean i turn a blind eye to any shit that goes on (i mean injustice at any level), no, it simply means that i don't become a slave to my emotional reactions to what goes on in my life. It means that anything negative that impacts on my life no longer impacts on my life. It may be negative, but i don't become negative due to any reaction to it.

As it happens, by saying nothing matters, i no longer worry about what people may say or think about me, and therefore i'm in a better position to call them for any shit they dish out to others, friends or strangers. And if a friend ceases to be a friend due to what i say to them, then... well, it don't matter man!!! One less friend, no probs.

 

[fela fan]

How do you differentiate between being awake and asleep?

The level of consciousness. And conscious activity as well. Thus, many people, though ostensibly and apparently awake, are in fact well asleep. This is especially so when people become little more than automatons doing all that organised religious crap. Eg praying a thousand times a day, giving shit to the gods and so on.

I think politics also sends awake people into deep sleep. In fact between politics and religion, many people have subsequently become little more than the walking dead.

 

[Blagsta]

fela fan on the other hand is special.

 

[fela fan]

fela fan on the other hand is special.

That notion would, of course, be entirely up to you blagsta. If you say it is so, then it must be so. How easy life is eh...

 

[gosub]

The level of consciousness. And conscious activity as well. Thus, many people, though ostensibly and apparently awake, are in fact well asleep. This is especially so when people become little more than automatons doing all that organised religious crap. Eg praying a thousand times a day, giving shit to the gods and so on.

I think politics also sends awake people into deep sleep. In fact between politics and religion, many people have subsequently become little more than the walking dead.

So you believe in different levels of nothing then?

 

[if6were9]

Nope.

Humans are quite capable of having 'sensible' moral values without religion, and many of the teachings of all the major religions are certainly not sensible, and frighteningly immoral.

What is a "sensible" moral value?

I think "sensible" is a word most associated with the petit-bourgeoisie, whose predeliction for sensible footwear, sensible cyclists and sensible sweaters is known to be something relied on, by the petit-bourgeoisie and nobody else.

To my mind a sensible moral value might be to love my wife, look after my children, do a decent days work and contribute, occasionally, to charity. The fact that I might be doing this in Nazi Germany is unfortunate, but, in the world of 'sensible' moral values, the vast scope covered by ideologies lie outside the remit of the ordinary person and are best avoided for fear of acute social embarrasment.

Religious people both opposed and collaborated with Nazi Germany, many opposed oppressive regimes from a transcendental source certainly outside the realm of the "sensible" and even outside the prevailing social climate and at great risk to themselves, others collaborated out of pragmatism, a wilfull igorance or fear or because they perversely misinterpreted the same transcendental source.

It seems to me to be naive to say that the choice of whatever moral direction we take should be obvious. There is an interesting story related to one of the past lives of the Buddha where he was a passenger on a ship containing scores of pilgrims, he overheard the captain, presumably insane, declaring he will kill all the pilgrims the next day. The nascent Buddha decided, pragmatically, to kill the captain and save scores of lives. Interestingly, after his enlightenment, Shakyamuni said this very decision to murder retarded his eventual rebirth as a Buddha. If you have any sympathy for buddhist thought, its interesting to ask yourself what you would have done?

Religion, or "spirituality" whether or not you subscribe to it, addresses the question of transcendental value, or even, value beyond the levels of epidient morality necessary to regulate and police a human community, whose scope and breadth as an uncomplicated reaction pretty soon gets exhausted anyway.

 

[Roadkill]

Unsurprisingly, given that it was written by someone who thinks David Shayler was spiked by MI5, I can't discern anything resembling a point in that post - and certainly nothing germane to the point I was making in the post you've quoted a line of.

 

[if6were9]

Start from the position that you have your food clothing and shelter, the basics in life to achieve the basic level of security (maslow's triangle).

Now, from there you live your life. Shit happens, good things happen. We are slaves to the happenings in life, we react to what happens. If we are lucky something good happens, and we feel good for a wee time. If we are unlucky, something bad happens, and we feel bad.

But, if nothing matters, than we take the good and the bad with equal non-reaction. We recognise that things happen, and that we don't have to feel bad in reaction to the bad things. If it doesn't matter, then it can't be bad.

While this may be essentially ( or, more, accurately ) absolutely true you would have to be an automaton or on drugs to react to the news you have cancer without a flicker of pain.

You're repeating something either 'new age' or from some corrupted religious source to give a sort of 'feel good' kick to your personal philosophy. When people more actively engaged in the political dimension or in problems of human suffering read it they blow a gasket coz up against the realities of day to day life for so many people it comes across as sanctimonious tosh.

 

[Zeppo]

Following on from if6 - Fela your post does read like some sort of Zen, nirvana type thing. Or is it a Christian "turn the other cheek". Good and bad matters happen - how we react can be positive or have a negative result on our being. However, mostly we try to assess why these things happen.

People are not just robots going through life without a care in the world. People make choices and there are consequences that follow the choice they take.

 

[if6were9]

Unsurprisingly, given that it was written by someone who thinks David Shayler was spiked by MI5, I can't discern anything resembling a point in that post - and certainly nothing germane to the point I was making in the post you've quoted a line of.

OK, Roadkill, let me try and put it another way.

The elements within 5 ( they work in a cell structure ) responsible for tampering with and destroying Shayler's brain did so because they thought they were doing the right thing .

Although some might be simple sadists, many will believe that Shayler represents more of a threat to SServices operatives as a functioning human being than as a paranoid vegetable.

So, they reason that by dosing him up to the eyeballs they are, in the long term, saving lives - numerous invisible lives the security services believe they protect.

Now, where, from their point of view, is the "sensible" moral centre? Do you dose a potentially dangerous man's tea with LSD and watch as he falls apart, or do you just stand by an watch your organisation dedicated to "national interest and saving lives," fall apart?

Over to you

 

[Blagsta]

this place is infested with cosmic wankers lately

we need a purge

 

[fela fan]

While this may be essentially ( or, more, accurately ) absolutely true you would have to be an automaton or on drugs to react to the news you have cancer without a flicker of pain.

You're repeating something either 'new age' or from some corrupted religious source to give a sort of 'feel good' kick to your personal philosophy. When people more actively engaged in the political dimension or in problems of human suffering read it they blow a gasket coz up against the realities of day to day life for so many people it comes across as sanctimonious tosh.

And you're a spokesmean for all those so many people, and can accurately say that if they read my words they will think them sanctimonious tosh, huh??

And i've observed first hand somebody being told they have cancer and will die in nine months, and seen their total acceptance of the news. And since they were not a robot or automaton, you've called that one wrong.

Furthermore i'm not repeating anything, i'm posting up my own ideas, so that's another one you've called wrong. So far you're not doing very well at all.

And when it comes to suffering, i witness that first hand. I also have the misfortune to witness totally unnecessary suffering, usually westerners who are not in the position of looking for their next meal. What i think about people who are suffering will make not one iota of difference to their suffering, and that underlies what i say about nothing matters. It is also true that if i can remain emotionally uninvolved then i'm in a better position to be of help, should people want help.

 

[fela fan]

Following on from if6 - Fela your post does read like some sort of Zen, nirvana type thing. Or is it a Christian "turn the other cheek". Good and bad matters happen - how we react can be positive or have a negative result on our being. However, mostly we try to assess why these things happen.

People are not just robots going through life without a care in the world. People make choices and there are consequences that follow the choice they take.

It only reads like that to some readers mate. The interpretation of a text is not based so much on the text as how the reader reacts to it, and that of course will be based on their own unique history of life.

To me it is nothing to do with any religions, it is not something i read somewhere and thought i'd adopt. It is the result of many years of my own history in life. I'm not saying i can achieve it all the time, but my experience has shown me how beneficial it is in life. It does not mean i've become an emotionless robot, i happen to enjoy all the good emotions, but what i've done is reduced massively any 'suffering' i may get by accepting whatever shit comes along. Essentially, if i can't change something then i accept it. I no longer fight what i cannot change. But, if i can change any shit i see in life, then i still fight to do so.

As for making choices, fine, but have you tried letting the choices make themselves for you? Choicelessness... it's fun.

 

[fela fan]

So you believe in different levels of nothing then?

No, nothing is a pole, one end of a continuum. You can't have degrees of zero.

 

[if6were9]

Furthermore i'm not repeating anything, i'm posting up my own ideas.

But they are not your ideas are they?

Unless you're saying you're some kind of new prophet? Are you saying that fela? That these ideas just 'came to you?' In which case maybe you are

 

[butchersapron]

Well, he is a 911 conspiraloon shayler type, so he might well believe that he is....

 

[jonH]

political schools would suit me down to the ground, they could even choose which religions they taught about and how