Regionalisation of RESPECT?

[Udo Erasmus]

if you mean, in some areas it is not growing at all or shrinking, and in east london it has maintained it's membership then yes that's correct

we could see overall how "fast" respect has "grown" if they had complied with the electoral commision regulations and filed it's accounts by the end of june this year of course, but as we move into november tomorrow still no sign of them

You really are an idiot

 

[Sorry.]

Indeed. It is interesting though that were say, George Galloway to come out and argue that the state of Israel had no legitimate right to exist, I can hardly see Class War anarchists leaping to his defence in the face of the inevitable onslaught he would get from Zionists and imperialists to point out that he meant it in another way from the ruler of Iran.

Whereas yourselves are always first in the queue to back up the anarchist movement...?

(anything to say on Dr.Naseem, btw?)

 

[oisleep]

why? it seems that respect are the ones who are idiots here, failing to comply with the electoral commission's regulations, if they can't cobble together a simple set of accounts for the year for their own organisation, how are we to trust them with anything more demanding?

 

[Pilgrim]

why? it seems that respect are the ones who are idiots here, failing to comply with the electoral commission's regulations, if they can't cobble together a simple set of accounts for the year for their own organisation, how are we to trust them with anything more demanding?

The short answer to the above question is that we probably can't.

And the idea of a supposedly 'national' organisation having so many leading members from one region doesn't sound either 'national' or democratic to me.

Surely an organisation wishing to be accountable to all regions would have a national council with delegates from as wide an array of regions as possible?

 

[Paul Marsh]

How long until a Class War member criticises Israel for wiping Palestine off the face of the earth?

Check your facts before arguing with the big boys sonny.

The spring 2004 Class War had a centre pages entitled "The Military Occupation of Palestine", whilst the autumn 2004 issue managed a page and a half on the same subject.

Trying to suggest that CW is some pro-Zionist organisation is pretty desperate, even for you.

I wonder what your Dr Naseem thinks on the current Iranian/Israeli dispute, and whether you would feel confident to give him a whole centre pages in a future Socialist Worker on the subject.

Yes or No?

 

[rebel warrior]

Check your facts before arguing with the big boys sonny.

Given CW's strong support for Palestine, and indeed, an apparent desire to see the end of the state of Israel ('No State'!), don't you think it is a little hypocritical of you to try and attack Respect on the question of Palestine?

As for Mr Naseem, I have never met the guy or heard him speak and so cannot really comment one way or another. However, I think that New Labour (and the AWL's) attacks on him have been desparate gutter stuff that are not worthy of serious debate.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I saw ward by ward details in East London of the Mayoral vote and however rmuch you try and convince yourself otherwise you don't have this broad appeal.

I have no time for respect but I migth at least 'respect' you a bit more if you still weren't trying to fob people off with this bollocks.

We've been here before.

Statistically speaking, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causality.

If Respect's appeal were strongest amonst the poorest people, then in some areas of the country that would mean a correlation beteen voting and the proportion of the population who are muslim, as there is a strong link between deprivation and poverty and the proportion of muslims. Certainly the correlation between muslim population and Respect vote is very strong in London - no-one denies that, and certainly those of us in Respect have no problem with it, as it a reflection of Respect's appeal to both the most anti-war and the poorest populations. Statistically, muslim millionaires are not a significant part of the population!

Elsewhere the correlation is not as great. In the North West for example, for the Euro-elections in 2004, there was a stronger correlation between Muslim population and the Liberal Democrat vote than the Respect vote. No-one would suggest that the LibDems are a muslim dominated party, though it is also clear that as the loyalties of muslims to Labour has been shattered by Iraq, some of it has been picked up the LibDems (eg LibDems easily won Rochdale from Labour on the back of an anti-war muslim vote).

 

[neprimerimye]

Statistically speaking, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causality.

If Respect's appeal were strongest amonst the poorest people, then in some areas of the country that would mean a correlation beteen voting and the proportion of the population who are muslim, as there is a strong link between deprivation and poverty and the proportion of muslims. Certainly the correlation between muslim population and Respect vote is very strong in London - no-one denies that, and certainly those of us in Respect have no problem with it, as it a reflection of Respect's appeal to both the most anti-war and the poorest populations. Statistically, muslim millionaires are not a significant part of the population!

Elsewhere the correlation is not as great. In the North West for example, for the Euro-elections in 2004, there was a stronger correlation between Muslim population and the Liberal Democrat vote than the Respect vote. No-one would suggest that the LibDems are a muslim dominated party, though it is also clear that as the loyalties of muslims to Labour has been shattered by Iraq, some of it has been picked up the LibDems (eg LibDems easily won Rochdale from Labour on the back of an anti-war muslim vote).

Statistics are notoriously used to distort and a very poor political tool. Thus it is true that Muslim groups are among the poorest in British society. It is also true that statistically Muslim millionaires are few and far between. However the strength and influence of the various petty bourgeois strata are stronger in many Muslim communities than is the case with other etho-religious communities.

Thus if a political party were to win the support of a local businessman or cleric it would barely register politically in most regions and communities. The same cannot be said of Muslim, particularly South Asian, communities which are very strongly influenced by such petty bourgeois elements.

Most such community leaders, as they are euphemistically known, were until recently Labour Party aligned. Various events, including Iraq, have shattered that alliance. The result has been that many community leaders, particularly younger british born, have switched to the Lib Dems and ina minority of areas to Respect.

The trouble is that this switch does not represent an increase in consciousness among the mass of those switching. At most it signifies real frustration with New Labour and a generalised dissatisfaction with British society. Unless an electoral switch is evidence of an increase in class consciousness and of an escaope from the influence of petty bourgeois community leaders then it simply represents the degeneration of British politics in the direction of American style community politics by which various bourgeois parties seek to divide and rule by favouring one of other group at the expense of the whole.

In short it is the negation of even the rotten class politics that the Labour Party once represented. A return to the situation that prevailed prior to 1900 with no class party but plenty of socialist sects. That the largest such sect, the SWP, takes part in this process and encourages it is proof of the utter desparation of its leadership to breakout of the left ghetto before they grow too old even if that means abandoning their socialist principles in practice if not private. But public vice and private virtue is as unattractive in a party as in a person. And as farcical.

 

[BarryB]

One thing is obvious from the above - you haven't actually bothered to read the article.

If I havent read the article I wouldent be able to quote from it. Obvious to everyone but you.

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

It is possible to criticise Respect without being sectarian - however this thread is a rather silly way to try and criticise Respect.

Respect is being accused of having more people from one area on its national council than another area. But surely this is how any democratic party operates- if lots of people are joining Respect in one area - shouldn't that area has a right to more representatives?

Moreover, the attacks on Respect for targetting just one section of the working class are attacks on Respect that do nobody who makes them any favours. Indeed, when viewed historically in terms of the British working class parties, all parties have uneven strength among the working class.

The Labour Party did not come into the world a national party with a mass membership - rather it grew into such a party from building on the areas where it - or rather the ILP - initially met with a lot of support - for example in East London and Bradford - for example. The Communist Party in turn had its heartlands - in particular among the South Wales mining community - as did the ILP later on which had 5 MPs in the 1930s - all from Scotland I think.

The point about the ILP and the CP is precisely that they were not able to become national parties with mass membership. Although both were larger than Respect they failed to break out of their heartlands. The same is likely to happen with Respect.

As for it being right for Respect to have lots of people from east London on their executive because thats where people are joining does the same criteria apply to parties of the left in Britain?

BarryB

 

[BarryB]

As for Mr Naseem, I have never met the guy or heard him speak and so cannot really comment one way or another. However, I think that New Labour (and the AWL's) attacks on him have been desparate gutter stuff that are not worthy of serious debate.

You would say that wouldent you.

BarryB

 

[Sorry.]

As for Mr Naseem, I have never met the guy or heard him speak and so cannot really comment one way or another.

Cop out.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Cop out.

Indeed - I have never heard Tony Blair speak, nor met him, yet I have a pretty good idea he's a wrong un'.

Staying with Respects Birmingham man, can anyone post up his July 7th website again, as I can't seem to find it. It made some of the 9/11 conspiracy rubbish look good.

 

[JTG]

(eg LibDems easily won Rochdale from Labour on the back of an anti-war muslim vote).

Rochdale had been Liberal for donkey's years before 1997 though.

 

[rednblack]

Rochdale had been Liberal for donkey's years before 1997 though.

famously, cyril smith and that...

 

[Sorry.]

*Just to restate the obvious, for the benefit of the hard of reading and Mark Steel Jnr on the other thread*

Nothing wrong with a national organisation having regional heartlands or even being more popular among one section of the population. Everything wrong in perpetuating communal identity politics by appealing to a constituency as muslims and through alliances with their "community leaders"

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I wonder if the odious divisive RESPECT party are going to stand in any consitituencies or wards in the Barking and Dagenham area or don't they have any 'core vote' there.

RESPECT have handed the BNP a wonderful piece of legitimacy by making voting on the grounds of race and religion a politically acceptable activity.

Well done Swappies for successfully importing the nightmare of communitarian politics from Ulster to the mainland.

scum

 

[butchersapron]

Indeed - I have never heard Tony Blair speak, nor met him, yet I have a pretty good idea he's a wrong un'.

Staying with Respects Birmingham man, can anyone post up his July 7th website again, as I can't seem to find it. It made some of the 9/11 conspiracy rubbish look good.

Here you go Paul. Of partilcular interest might be the articles by well known vicious homophobe, anti-semite and far-right bigwig Alexander Baron on 'The Organised Homosexual Movement: Its Methods And Its Goals' or their own 'The unhappy search for the “gay” Muslim'. Baron and unhappy.

The 911 conspiracy loon stuff is here and the 7/7 stuff is here

We went into this on another thread last week, but i expect a lot of people didn't read it as it looked like conspiracy shit. He sounds like a cracking candidate and member of the national committe doesn't he?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Here you go Paul. Of partilcular interest might be the articles by well known vicious homophobe, anti-semite and far-right bigwig Alexander Baron on 'The Organised Homosexual Movement: Its Methods And Its Goals' or their own 'The unhappy search for the “gay” Muslim'. Baron and unhappy.

The 911 conspiracy loon stuff is here and the 7/7 stuff is here

We went into this on another thread last week, but i expect a lot of people didn't read it as it looked like conspiracy shit. He sounds like a cracking candidate and member of the national committe doesn't he?

What a nasty pile of poo that all is. Nice bedfellows the Swappies are in with aint they.

 

[Sorry.]

What a nasty pile of poo that all is. Nice bedfellows the Swappies are in with aint they.

Shut up, he's a community leader

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Shut up, he's a community leader

With the swappies if it looks like it will get the vote out then they are beyond criticism.

Remember kids Swappies = lies. I recall how a senior swappie told me that they'd run the BNP out of Dagenham approximately 1 year before the BNP got one councillor and 18 mnths before they came third in the general election.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Butchers: This was the one I was particularly after:

http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/response.html

Bonkers.

 

[Sorry.]

interesting that, on balance Respect would rather indulge this homophobic anti-semitic conspiraloon (and accept the potentially damaging political fallout from that) than alienate their leading donor and main ballot-deliverer in Brum...

 

[Harold Hill]

With the swappies if it looks like it will get the vote out then they are beyond criticism.

Remember kids Swappies = lies. I recall how a senior swappie told me that they'd run the BNP out of Dagenham approximately 1 year before the BNP got one councillor and 18 mnths before they came third in the general election.

Seriously?

Its their strongest area south of Birmingham.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Seriously?

Its their strongest area south of Birmingham.

Yup when I was invoved with the STWC stuff I was having coffee with some swappies and was told by a senior Swappie in the area that they'd got the university students on side and 'run the BNP out of town'

 

[rednblack]

Yup when I was invoved with the STWC stuff I was having coffee with some swappies and was told by a senior Swappie in the area that they'd got the university students on side and 'run the BNP out of town'

lol! wankers

 

[KeyboardJockey]

lol! wankers

I know I couldn't believe it myself.

I might make a quick trip into swappie land on Saturday to see what they've got tosay for themselves apart from 'papers, papers, buy my steenking papers'

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Rochdale had been Liberal for donkey's years before 1997 though.

But the demographics have changed significantly since Cyril Smith won it in 1972.

The nearby seat of Colne Valley was also part of the 'Pennine' Liberal success of the same period and also had a longstanding Liberal MP (from 1966-70 and 1974-87). But it is now a safe Labour seat where the Lib Dems are in third place and vote declining. The similar and also nearby seat of Pendle was also won by Labour, due in part to the MP being known as anti-war (surprisingly as he had been very much establishment in the past).

It is clear that the LibDem victory in Rochdale was due to an anti-war backlash from muslim voters against a very pro-war Blairite Labour MP, and not just a general revival of the Liberal tradition in the town and region.

 

[BarryB]

But the demographics have changed significantly since Cyril Smith won it in 1972.

The nearby seat of Colne Valley was also part of the 'Pennine' Liberal success of the same period and also had a longstanding Liberal MP (from 1966-70 and 1974-87). But it is now a safe Labour seat where the Lib Dems are in third place and vote declining. The similar and also nearby seat of Pendle was also won by Labour, due in part to the MP being known as anti-war (surprisingly as he had been very much establishment in the past).

It is clear that the LibDem victory in Rochdale was due to an anti-war backlash from muslim voters against a very pro-war Blairite Labour MP, and not just a general revival of the Liberal tradition in the town and region.

Fisher Gate I admit to knowing next to nothing about the Colne Valley constituency but I am a bit surprised that you say that Colne Valley is now a safe Labour seat. In the 2005 General Election Labour received 35.85% and the Tories with 32.78%. The Lib dems trailed third with 24.17%. There was a 3.40% swing from Lab to Con. These figures on the surface suggest that Colne Valley is vulnerable to the Cons in the next election. Of course you may have good reason for saying that it is now a safe Labour seat but could you spell it out a bit?

BarryB

 

[lewislewis]

"I thought the President would appreciate to know that even today, three years after the war, I still meet families who are calling their newborn sons Saddam."

"Syria is lucky to have Bashar Al-Assad as her President."

You guessed it.