Reform or Revolution?

[fela fan]

Programme and deprogramme all you like, but it makes no sense to me. I am not a machine.


Debt does have an impact on the economy in many different ways.

Whether you can or can't see it, doesn't stop it from being true. Not strictly a machine, no, but manipulated from above, certainly. If you can't see it, don't dismiss what i say, try and find out why i'm saying it. But some of the manipulation comes from newspaper headlines, and from the tv news, and from any apparantly 'objective' programme.

As for debt and the economy, we have the debt we have because it suits the purposes of those that control the economy. It's what makes our economy, it happens because that's what's needed in this type of economy. It helps make the already rich even more fucking rich, and it creates a situation where 'debt is the slavery of the free' (can't remember who said this). They can have their technology and material things, but at the price of their freedom, not least their freedom to think independently and individually.

That they can't see this is the crucial point. When enough people realise how manipulated they are, then the requisite revolution will occur. But the main theatre will have already been played out by that time: ie the revolution of the self. A revolution where basically people wake up to how they've been deceived that they are free, and have freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is of very little use if there is no thought behind the speech. We need free thinkers first. And that means disobedience to any authority decision that is deemed to be wrong.

 

[rich!]

Freedom of speech is of very little use if there is no thought behind the speech. We need free thinkers first. And that means disobedience to any authority decision that is deemed to be wrong.

Tell me, does the country you're living in have an agreement with the US government to extradite to the US any citizen without seeing the case?
And a track record of fulfilling that agreement?

 

[fela fan]

Tell me, does the country you're living in have an agreement with the US government to extradite to the US any citizen without seeing the case?
And a track record of fulfilling that agreement?

Not sure about the question you're asking and why you're asking, but i'll say i don't know basically.

But i certainly don't understand your question based on my post you're replying to!

Either way, i can't answer too well without more clarification from you mate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Source?

Source?

For apocrypha?

You're having a bubble, aren't you?

Get thee to a dictionary!

 

[rich!]

Not sure about the question you're asking and why you're asking, but i'll say i don't know basically.

But i certainly don't understand your question based on my post you're replying to!

Either way, i can't answer too well without more clarification from you mate.

The UK has an extradition treaty with the US that means our government will ship people to the States for "trial" without asking to see what the case against them is.

Since the US regards "speaking out against the neo-con world-view" as a federal crime/act of terror, this kind of puts a chilling damper on freedom of speech in this country...

 

[tbaldwin]

The SWP revolutionary"?

They've never been revolutionary as far as I can ascertain, they've always talked the talk without walking the walk. Threaten 'em with a bit of real-life politics and most of them run a mile until the nasty proles (who refuse to even buy the paper ffs!) have gone away.

There are apocryphal stories of MI5 agents and Special Branch undercover plod committing suicide in despair at not being able to incite the swappies to be revolutionary, you know.

Have you got any evidence or statistics to back any of that up?
The SWP have always claimed to be Revolutionaries, so if your saying they aint you probably will be able to point to where they have said so?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have you got any evidence or statistics to back any of that up?
The SWP have always claimed to be Revolutionaries, so if your saying they aint you probably will be able to point to where they have said so?

Actually they claim to be a workers party and socialists, but they're mostly middle-class reactionaries and students.

Look at their history, balders. It's all the evidence anyone needs.

3-odd decades of political activity and not a sign of revolution.

Lots of marches, masses of delving into single-issue politics, plenty of subsuming and/or swamping of other political organisations that might threaten their position, reams of papers, journals and books telling the peasants what the leaders think and even some kowtowing to the stodgier end of Islam, but bugger all organisation of the proletariat to bring about a revolution, which by anyone's standards has to be the main measure of whether one qualifies as "revolutionary".

 

[tbaldwin]

Actually they claim to be a workers party and socialists, but they're mostly middle-class reactionaries and students.

Look at their history, balders. It's all the evidence anyone needs.

3-odd decades of political activity and not a sign of revolution.

Lots of marches, masses of delving into single-issue politics, plenty of subsuming and/or swamping of other political organisations that might threaten their position, reams of papers, journals and books telling the peasants what the leaders think and even some kowtowing to the stodgier end of Islam, but bugger all organisation of the proletariat to bring about a revolution, which by anyone's standards has to be the main measure of whether one qualifies as "revolutionary".

So the SWP are not Revolutionaries cos there has not been a Revolution?
By that logic anyone who says they are against a govt policy that hasnt changed it, is really in favour of it?
I think you may be in danger of expressing an opinion without any back up evidence?

 

[fela fan]

The UK has an extradition treaty with the US that means our government will ship people to the States for "trial" without asking to see what the case against them is.

Since the US regards "speaking out against the neo-con world-view" as a federal crime/act of terror, this kind of puts a chilling damper on freedom of speech in this country...

Ah i see. I got confused coz i left britain years ago and therefore am not living there!

I'd heard about this law. I know of others. It's why i often see the UK as part of the US.

I also heard that the reason for UK passports needing to be biometric in future is due to US visa rules...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Once upon a time, I belived in revolution. When I say that, I'm not sure I'm saying it with embarassment, sadness, or pride.

 

[fela fan]

Once upon a time, I belived in revolution. When I say that, I'm not sure I'm saying it with embarassment, sadness, or pride.

Have you read about the revolution i'm talking about johnny? Coz i doubt it's the same as the one you're talking about.

And in any case, i'm of the opinion that the older one gets the more revolutionary one should become.

Not the other way round.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Have you read about the revolution i'm talking about johnny? Coz i doubt it's the same as the one you're talking about.

And in any case, i'm of the opinion that the older one gets the more revolutionary one should become.

Not the other way round.

I was responding to the ideas of the OP. I don't believe that he was talking about the inner revolution.

I think the problem is that in the west, we live in the best material world that mankind has yet to know. Poverty exists, but it's nothing compared to poverty in the third world, and the state of modern poverty beats the life of the average person a couple of centuries ago. The modern middle income earners live better than royalty of that time, and our wealthy live lives unimagined and unimaginable back then.

But there's a tradeoff. We have jobs, then we have credit, then we buy some of the wealth of material goods available, and then we have families with increasing material demands, and then we become slaves.

The analogy that springs to my mind is a barnful of sleek Jersey cows all in a row, each one well fed, with glossy hair, but with milk machines permanently attached to their udders. There's plenty of food, but it comes on a conveyor belt to the trough in front of you, and you can eat all you want, but your head is tethered in position.

I think we now pamper our bodies at the expense of our souls. We have nothing to believe in but Saturday at the mall, and dying without leaving to great a debt burden for our kids. We work for the weekend and for the three weeks allotted to us for free time, two weeks' of which is used to decompress from the stress of the rest of the working year.

We don't have God anymore, our families are fragmenting, and nobody hangs out at the social club. We are fit and well-exercised individuals who are told what we want, and that we can never get enough.

Should there be a revolution? Probably, one of the kind that fela is talking about. But I think that the job of throwing down a corrupt regime would be child's play compared to the task of dismantling an overwhelming and all pervasive psychological and societal regime like the one that cradles us in its arms of velvet-draped steel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So the SWP are not Revolutionaries cos there has not been a Revolution?

That isn't what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.
I said they're not revolutionaries because they don't engage in any revolutionary activity.
Got that?
Plain enough for you?

By that logic anyone who says they are against a govt policy that hasnt changed it, is really in favour of it?
I think you may be in danger of expressing an opinion without any back up evidence?

Which makes that load of old spunk irrelevant, just like you.

 

[tbaldwin]

That isn't what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.
I said they're not revolutionaries because they don't engage in any revolutionary activity.
Got that?
Plain enough for you?

Which makes that load of old spunk irrelevant, just like you.

REVOLUTIONARY ACTIVITY as defined by you..... Mr Know it all of Urban 75.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

REVOLUTIONARY ACTIVITY as defined by you..... Mr Know it all of Urban 75.....

No, you shit for brains, gaping cow-cuntlike-mouthed twat, revolutionary activity of ANY definition.

teenage swappie, were you?

Wouldn't surprise me. You're certainly rightwing enough, and like them you're deluded enough to believe you're a socialist.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, you shit for brains, gaping cow-cuntlike-mouthed twat, revolutionary activity of ANY definition.

teenage swappie, were you?

Wouldn't surprise me. You're certainly rightwing enough, and like them you're deluded enough to believe you're a socialist.

Thanks for that....
So what Revolutionary activity do you think the SWP should have been doing?
And just out of interest are you a revolutionary yourself or like me a reformist?
Over to you 2 brains....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thanks for that....
So what Revolutionary activity do you think the SWP should have been doing?

I think the SWP should carry out the revolutionary act of dissolving itself, so that it's angst-ridden middle class members can fuck off and stop patronising the w/c.

And just out of interest are you a revolutionary yourself or like me a reformist?

I'm neither, I'm a pragmatist.

Over to you 2 brains....

2 brains?

What is your pea-sized one stuck to my shoe or summat?

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm neither, I'm a pragmatist.

2 brains?

Another interesting definition!! Your a pragmatist..... ermmmmm

 

[ViolentPanda]

Another interesting definition!! Your a pragmatist..... ermmmmm

If you're not sure what it means look it up in a dictionary.

 

[tbaldwin]

If you're not sure what it means look it up in a dictionary.

A dictionary wont explain how someone like you can describe yourself as a pragmatist........

 

[audiotech]

pragmatit more like.

 

[ViolentPanda]

pragmatit more like.

Ooh, the wimp who reports rude posts has posted one himself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A dictionary wont explain how someone like you can describe yourself as a pragmatist........

Psychotherapy won't explain how you can describe yourself as a socialist.

 

[tbaldwin]

I believe in Redistribution of Wealth and Power,Nationally and Internationally.... Course i know for someone like you thats not enough.......
Its VPs pragmatic vision or nothing.....

 

[audiotech]

Ooh, the wimp who reports rude posts has posted one himself.

The reported posts were malicious slurs on my character. This was just a harmless pisstake (non-racist). Obviously, not being a wimp yourself, I'm sure you can take it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The reported posts were malicious slurs on my character. This was just a harmless pisstake (non-racist). Obviously, not being a wimp yourself, I'm sure you can take it.

Malicious slurs?

Only if you have a particularly high opinion of yourself.

Given the reaction of the majority of posters to what you post that high opinion isn't shared, is it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I believe in Redistribution of Wealth and Power,Nationally and Internationally.... Course i know for someone like you thats not enough.......
Its VPs pragmatic vision or nothing.....

You should do stand up.

Preferably in a mortuary, otherwise your audience might try to escape.

 

[audiotech]

Malicious slurs?

Only if you have a particularly high opinion of yourself.

Given the reaction of the majority of posters to what you post that high opinion isn't shared, is it?

It must be the silent majority then?

E.g, the only person to interject, in the thread where I was having a robust argument with frogwoman (whose reaction was friendly in a pm I received from her today), with some crap about "pulling my neck in" was you.

 

[tbaldwin]

Malicious slurs?

Only if you have a particularly high opinion of yourself.

Given the reaction of the majority of posters to what you post that high opinion isn't shared, is it?

If only everyone was as modest and intelligent as Violent Panda.....

 

[tbaldwin]

You should do stand up.

Preferably in a mortuary, otherwise your audience might try to escape.

Dont try and be funny VP, try and be serious thats when you really get me laughing...