Reform or Revolution?

[bluestreak]

Your assumptions about me,are based on your prejudice that anyone who disagrees with you is IGNORANT. It's exactly why the Left is so weak.

not all. my assumptions about you are based on your posts, which are ignorant and prejudiced. the left are weak, IMO, for the reasons i gave. you're cmopletely incapable of discussing anythign, and exist merely to point out that the left is weak and make sweeping statements about society that are often proved wrong by the experience of the people reading them, such as me.

 

[tbaldwin]

not all. my assumptions about you are based on your posts, which are ignorant and prejudiced. the left are weak, IMO, for the reasons i gave. you're cmopletely incapable of discussing anythign, and exist merely to point out that the left is weak and make sweeping statements about society that are often proved wrong by the experience of the people reading them, such as me.

Ignorant of what?
Prejudiced against who?

In what ways do your experiences prove me wrong?

 

[ska invita]

As if voting doesn't change anything. Voting is what gives you the government you now have, the labour-conservative alliance. And not voting is what ensures that they don't have any opposition.
.

Proprotional Representation is a vital reform that would help this situation - Labour p[romised it in their 97 manifesto, and guess what, forgot about it.

The Power Commision have recently described democracy as being in "meltdown" in Britain, and have called for drastic reform in the voting structure (although Im not sure if they used the words PR.

I say vote lib dem next election, purely for their stand on PR if nothing else - once we have PR in Braitain (like every other European country) we can begin to have credible and worthwhile alternative party politics.

 

[ZWord]

yeah well it's a fair point of view from a realistic perspective.

personally, I think that it'll be a bit late by the next election even if there were a hung parliament. And tbh probably in the face of the lib dems insisting on PR the
conservatives and new labour would make their alliance overt just to ensure that it doesn't happen. And we'd get a whole load of spin about the need for consensus government, and ensuring that minority parties don't get more power than they ought.

 

[eoin_k]

I voted revolutionary because I think that capitalism is inherently exploitative and unsustainable. A fundamental change is needed to break with this system.

That doesn't mean I have any illusions about the potential for revolution any time soon or about the role of the British left in achieving such change.

It will only be when large numbers of ordinary people feel the need for change and the power to achieve it that revolution will be possible.

 

[atitlan]

Proprotional Representation is a vital reform that would help this situation.

It certainly is. FPTP creates an enormous barrier to incremental change, unless that change comes from within the established parties.

There is a huge reluctance on the part of most people to vote in line with their ideology when that means voting for a party that they feel has no chance of gaining a parliamentary seat. This results in a culture of non-voting or negative voting (voting for the least worst option) - shown most vividly in voters' willingness to participate in tactical voting.

If you look at Green representation under PR systems on the continent and their lack of representation at Westminster we can see the barrier of FPTP in action. Are the people of the UK really that less environmentally conscious than, for example, the Germans? Of course not!

But how do you get PR out of a party that benefits from FPTP? Labour promised it - until they got a landslide under FPTP. The LibDems still have it in their manifesto, but for how long now they are 'modernising'?

Perhaps the only way to get PR through the current electoral system would be for every seat to be contested under an 'Electoral Change' banner with a single manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on the electoral method and then to call a new General Election under the new system.


EDIT: There's a lot of comments on this thread about the way people feel about life in Britain, their powerlessness to change it, complicity in their own misery etc. As others have said, what people express as their specific dis-satisfactions are not necessarily the root cause, or would make them feel any better if they were rectified.

My personal impression is that Western society, in general, and Britain especially, has been robbed of the great motivator it has had pretty much since the start of the industrial revolution -the belief that things are getting better and the next generation will have a freer, fairer and generally more fulfilled existence than this one.

 

[tbaldwin]

EDIT: There's a lot of comments on this thread about the way people feel about life in Britain, their powerlessness to change it, complicity in their own misery etc. As others have said, what people express as their specific dis-satisfactions are not necessarily the root cause, or would make them feel any better if they were rectified.

There is a lot of negativity and hysteria on u75 and on the far left. It doesnt seem to help anyone.
When i laugh at some of the hysteria i am accused of being a New Labour cheerleader etc.... Which makes me laugh even more....

But it is sad that people who are probably quite well meaning and do want social change are just so hopeless and clueless.

There is no hope of any real sustained social change,if you cant get the support of the majority of people.
And the only way that will happen is when the left connects in a positive way with the views of ordinary people.
Not much chance of that happening in a hurry!

 

[greenman]

Are the majority of "ordinary people" content with the current situation in the UK politically then, Baldwin?
Not in my experience, nor most of the other posters.
Those who say people are "content" mix up the lack of will/ability to do anything to change the situation at the moment with general satisfaction.
As I said before - in my experience, the majority of people in my town, regardless of whether their politics are left, right or centre on individual issues, are almost universally very critical of politicians in general, the political system in the UK, the power of supra-national organisations and corporations and the lack of any significant levers for any of what dissatisfies them to be changed. Rather than "contentment" I would discribe the general feeling as disgruntled impotence.......on all sides of the political spectrum except that tiny group of self-delusional panglossians that we know as "new labour".........
What I am saying is that the dissatisfaction goes beyond any left/right distinction - it is more of a crisis of political representation, a constitutional and structural crisis that is only held off by relative economic stability. The "information society" only exacerbates this because people now have 24/7 access to information, and even with the general pro-establishment views of much of media ownership, a huge section of the population is in a permanent state of..annoyance ..about the state of things.

 

[tbaldwin]

greenman, contentment? Well yes people moan about politicians..... Hardly news..... But if people were really that pissed off with things then wouldnt we be seeing more signs of widespread dissent or revolt?

My point about the majority of people though is a simple one. The far left and liberals have almost open contempt for the views of the majority of people in the UK and until this changes they will never be a force for positive change.

 

[krtek a houby]

I used to believe in revolution but sadly, after reading the arguments here over the years, I realise that there will never be a revolution.

Too many disagreements over which system, what politic, counter arguments and so forth.

Too many getting shouted down, elitist cliques and all the rest.

Nah, revolution - wonderful thought but not workable.

Lethargy's not suprising, with all that and the world we live in.

Hello, totalitarian state.

But, I, for one, welcome our new Overlords

 

[fela fan]

As I said before - in my experience, the majority of people in my town, regardless of whether their politics are left, right or centre on individual issues, are almost universally very critical of politicians in general, the political system in the UK, the power of supra-national organisations and corporations and the lack of any significant levers for any of what dissatisfies them to be changed. Rather than "contentment" I would discribe the general feeling as disgruntled impotence.......on all sides of the political spectrum except that tiny group of self-delusional panglossians that we know as "new labour".........
What I am saying is that the dissatisfaction goes beyond any left/right distinction - it is more of a crisis of political representation, a constitutional and structural crisis that is only held off by relative economic stability.

But folk have always been pissed off at politicians. And the problems you've identified in your town mate are, as you say, not about left or right or middle or any fucking political hue. The problems are nothing to do with political things.

And that's where people go wrong in my estimation.

The problems are with themselves. They are wasting the miracle that their lives are, they don't know how or why they're doing this, but they know.

They're too damned comfortable. Maybe content is the wrong word, although to me it kind of fits. But their comfort zone is such that they don't or won't or can't explore the reasons for their innately sensed dissatisfaction.

But i can tell them, it's nothing to do with left right blair politics. It's to do with themselves.

Oh, and that stupid tv in the corner of the room...

 

[fela fan]

greenman, contentment? Well yes people moan about politicians..... Hardly news..... But if people were really that pissed off with things then wouldnt we be seeing more signs of widespread dissent or revolt?

Exactly.

The murderous crimes and bullshit that blair has spun, and he gets put back into power. Superb eh!

The british people per se are too comfortable, and too accepting of the powerful and their abuses of power. We're the last people on the planet to go all revolutionary! Fuck, we did the power trip better than anyone else. Look at our empire, look at the victorian values, look at the way we told kids they could be seen but not heard. We even punished folk who'd stolen an apple by sending them off on a ship 15,000 miles round the world!

You think we're gonna complain at our leaders in any meaningful way?!! No fucking way man. We don't do revolutions, we do humour instead. It takes our minds off the disrespect afforded us by the leaders, and that we supinely take.

 

[fela fan]

But it is sad that people who are probably quite well meaning and do want social change are just so hopeless and clueless.

It's in the blood mate. History put it there. Don't expect a british person to revolt. No fucking way! We won't even complain if the food's shit in a restaurant. No sir, we'll just eat it and tell ourselves we're not coming back here again.

We don't do complaints. We accept. Our language has gems like 'oh, just grin and bear it'.

 

[fela fan]

Proprotional Representation is a vital reform that would help this situation - Labour p[romised it in their 97 manifesto, and guess what, forgot about it.

In the realm of politics, i'd agree niksativa. But the british pride themselves on not embracing compromise. That's why our empire was so successful. Divide and rule is good old english language.

No, the vital reform we need is of ourselves. It is us that is lacking, not our leaders, not our politics. They just form according to who we are. Everyone's missing the boat by talking about reforming politics.

It is us. The revolution required is an individual one. You, me, the neighbour, and even the dog. The reform needed is of us.

 

[ZWord]

The problem is, fela, most people are too busy making enough money to stay in the same place to devote much time to inner transformation.

 

[tbaldwin]

,

No, the vital reform we need is of ourselves. It is us that is lacking, not our leaders, not our politics. They just form according to who we are. Everyone's missing the boat by talking about reforming politics.

It is us. The revolution required is an individual one. You, me, the neighbour, and even the dog. The reform needed is of us.

To a degree, i agree. But the problem of concentrating on ourselves is that is a bit of a selfish opt out.
How does you being a nicer person really change anything for starving people?
How does it help any fight for social justice?
I think that we need to think about not only our actions but also the actions of others especially those who have the most power.

 

[fela fan]

To a degree, i agree. But the problem of concentrating on ourselves is that is a bit of a selfish opt out.
How does you being a nicer person really change anything for starving people?
How does it help any fight for social justice?
I think that we need to think about not only our actions but also the actions of others especially those who have the most power.

A lot of the enlightened 'gurus' down the ages have always stressed the importance that any discussion between people must have them agreeing exactly on what words actually mean. 'Selfish' is one such word here. We'd need to examine what it actually means according to the dictionary (ie no connotational or cultural baggage), and how that fits within the concept of working on oneself to make oneself a better person.

Because lots of extra better persons, while initially acting in what we commonly see as selfish behaviour, will naturally lead to a better society.

So, an initial bit of selfishness, can in fact lead to long-term results that have far more selflessness in society. Society now, under the rampant capitalist/consumerist guise, is inherently and absolutely selfish.

And therein lies the connundrum. We've been taught that to try and claim happiness for ourselves is selfish, yet all the while the very system we have to follow requires us to be selfish.

This built-in problem needs tackling.

 

[fela fan]

The problem is, fela, most people are too busy making enough money to stay in the same place to devote much time to inner transformation.

Indeed mate. That is the part of it though. There is also the consumption, fame-obsessed default that is our society today. It is the big monster, where we can never get enough: we want fame and if we can't have that we'll attach ourselves to those who are famous. It helps us relate to who we are. We also buy buy buy coz getting material things is supposed to bring us happiness. That it doesn't is dealt with often through the modern-day art of self-deception.

By the time we might realise what it is that we need to do or be, rather than measuring ourselves by what we have, we are deep in debt and fully attached to the 'system'.

Britain is at this point i think. Revolution of the self is the only long-term solution.

 

[Azrael23]

Revolution of the self is the only long-term solution.

errrr yup.

About time we realised the power of living in the NOW.

 

[audiotech]

Revolution of the self is the only long-term solution.

That sounds Hegelian to me. When you've finally contemplated your own naval then what?

 

[fela fan]

That sounds Hegelian to me. When you've finally contemplated your own naval then what?

What's 'hegelian'?

The idea is to, rather than contemplating your navel, tune into being the individual person each is born to be, rather than a programmed member of any one society. This thread is on about british society in particular. People have been programmed into their speech and behaviour to far higher levels then they could conceive. The thing we need to do is reclaim ourselves, and to drop what society demands of us. We need far more disobedience. A lot more thinking for the self, rather than what society wants us to think or do.

That's where we were headed, until the age of modern high-end technology, consumption, and debt came along to seduce and control us.

 

[audiotech]

What's 'hegelian'?

The idea is to, rather than contemplating your navel, tune into being the individual person each is born to be, rather than a programmed member of any one society. This thread is on about british society in particular. People have been programmed into their speech and behaviour to far higher levels then they could conceive. The thing we need to do is reclaim ourselves, and to drop what society demands of us. We need far more disobedience. A lot more thinking for the self, rather than what society wants us to think or do.

That's where we were headed, until the age of modern high-end technology, consumption, and debt came along to seduce and control us.

Hegel thought that it was the consciousness of men/women that determines their being. Marx turned that on it's head and said that it is social being that determines consciousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel for more on Hegel.

Your argument about people being "programmed" I don't recognise. Alienated perhaps? I also find your idea of 'technology, consumption and debt' controlling us a bit weak.

Rather than 'reclaiming ourselves' (from what to what?), I would think that organising ourselves is a more favourable course of action.

 

[fela fan]

Your argument about people being "programmed" I don't recognise. Alienated perhaps? I also find your idea of 'technology, consumption and debt' controlling us a bit weak.

Rather than 'reclaiming ourselves' (from what to what?), I would think that organising ourselves is a more favourable course of action.

People can only organise themselves if they know what it is they want.

Not alienated no, unless from the self. Certainly not alienated from society. I mean programmed by society and external elements to oneself, at the expense of the individual. Its easy for me to see the results of this programming when british people pass through my town. Having been away a lot myself, i have gradually come to recognise the amount of deprogramming i had to go through myself.

Debt controls people through fear. Fear impacts negatively on our actions and lives.

Technology control: the incessant pursuit of it. And included is the tv, a huge tool of thought manipulation, never mind the numbing down of the faculties.

Consumption: again, non-stop. The thought that consumption equals happiness pervades right through society.

Between the three of them, people have a tough job to find their individuality in there.

 

[X-77]

When i laugh at some of the hysteria i am accused of being a New Labour cheerleader etc.... Which makes me laugh even more....

but you are a New Labour cheerleader so why are you laughing when you are accused of being one? Have you ever once criticised your wonderful idol Mr Blair who is so responsible for this contented land we live in?

 

[tbaldwin]

but you are a New Labour cheerleader so why are you laughing when you are accused of being one? Have you ever once criticised your wonderful idol Mr Blair who is so responsible for this contented land we live in?

Typically sad x77,
PFI and PPP are shit. Giving money to privatised train and bus companies is shit....
NL have been soft on crime and soft on the causes of crime.
They have been shit on immigration....

I have made those points over and over again....

NL are like their sad critics, confused liberals........

Oh yeah and your right about the olympics,a waste of money.

But having said all that NL have massivelly increased spending on health and education. And they deserve some credit for that.

 

[Fruitloop]

Beware of Hegel. Too much Hegel leaves you unable to think straight at all. It's like being taught to play the violin the old-fashioned way with your elbow tied to your top button - it'll take you years to undo the faulty habits and think about it logically again.

 

[audiotech]

People can only organise themselves if they know what it is they want.

From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs.

Not alienated no, unless from the self. Certainly not alienated from society. I mean programmed by society and external elements to oneself, at the expense of the individual. Its easy for me to see the results of this programming when british people pass through my town. Having been away a lot myself, i have gradually come to recognise the amount of deprogramming i had to go through myself.

Programme and deprogramme all you like, but it makes no sense to me. I am not a machine.

Debt controls people through fear. Fear impacts negatively on our actions and lives.

Debt does have an impact on the economy in many different ways.

Technology control: the incessant pursuit of it. And included is the tv, a huge tool of thought manipulation, never mind the numbing down of the faculties.

Amongst other things, People also watch T.V to chill out at the end of a working day, by watching some entertainment programme.

Consumption: again, non-stop. The thought that consumption equals happiness pervades right through society.

People can see through that.

Between the three of them, people have a tough job to find their individuality in there.

Or collective power.

 

[tbaldwin]

Interesting that nobody from the SWP or any of the other "revolutionary" groups has put forward a case for revolutionary change.
Is that because they have moved towards reformist views and know that the only hope for change lies in some form of reformism?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Interesting that nobody from the SWP or any of the other "revolutionary" groups has put forward a case for revolutionary change.
Is that because they have moved towards reformist views and know that the only hope for change lies in some form of reformism?

The SWP revolutionary"?

They've never been revolutionary as far as I can ascertain, they've always talked the talk without walking the walk. Threaten 'em with a bit of real-life politics and most of them run a mile until the nasty proles (who refuse to even buy the paper ffs!) have gone away.

There are apocryphal stories of MI5 agents and Special Branch undercover plod committing suicide in despair at not being able to incite the swappies to be revolutionary, you know.

 

[audiotech]

There are apocryphal stories of MI5 agents and Special Branch undercover plod committing suicide in despair at not being able to incite the swappies to be revolutionary, you know.

Source?