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redundancy meeting

Discussion in 'education & employment' started by ohmyliver, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    To cut a long story short.

    Looks like I'm going to be offered redundancy tomorrow. New boss, 'complete re-organisation' of department', etc. I'm not completely unhappy about it as I'm not happy at my work, as it's a combination of boring and stress.

    But I want to know how to get the best out of it. I know that the company I work for are very tight and so I'm unlikely to get anything more that statutory redundancy.

    I've done a brief bit of googling, but can anyone point me to some good redundancy resources which don't turn out to want you to pay to get more information.

    I'm not unionised (sadly), otherwise I'd have been straight on the phone to them.
  2. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat


    ACAS on redundancy (also note that ACAS have a telephone line that any individual employee can ring for advice - certainly at the "ring up and talk to someone" stage it's anonymous.

    Adviceguide (from Citizens Advice) - also has pages on situation re benefits and such after redundancy.

    would probably be a good start.

    Hope all goes as well as these things can.
    ohmyliver likes this.
  3. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

  4. vauxhallmum

    vauxhallmum had to scrap the cheap car

    This happened to me 18 months ago. I got loads of help from Urban. The first thing was to take notes of everything said at every meeting and every casual conversation.
  5. tombowler

    tombowler still missing the point

    when i got laid off in 2002 It was a better deal if you volunteered for thee chop, iirc legally they have to give you more, so I stuck my hand up knowing I was pretty much first in line anyway and got a grand more plus something for loss of office did not set me up for life but it helped with the nice six months or so off work.anyway do what Puddy_t said it's good advice
  6. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat

    I am almost certain there is no legal requirement to offer enhanced redundancy pay for voluntary redundancy, although many employers tend to.

    Employers can legally have a redundancy scheme that offers more than statutory redundancy pay, either in general, or for a one-off redundancy exercise, and this can include enhancements for voluntary redundancy.

    This could either be in the contract of employment, or a formal procedure or established custom and practice in the workplace that could legally be considered as forming part of a contract. (therefore possible claim for breach of contract if they don't)

    But they can't offer less than statutory terms, no matter what. (and I think if they go bust, you can claim statutory redundancy from the state)

    If something is "discretionary" it's even muddier - and I'd suspect that unless there was a fairly clear 'discrimination' element (e.g. racial, sexual etc) why something was offered on one occasion but not another, you'd probably not get very far.

    One strand to taking voluntary redundancy - as far as I'm aware, the DWP don't mind whether redundancy is voluntary or compulsory for JSA purposes (taking voluntary redundancy doesn't count as 'voluntarily unemployed' like resigning does, and if they try and say it does you should argue) - BUT some payment protection insurances (e.g. with a mortgage) do specifically exclude unemployment arising from voluntary redundancy. That may or may not be an issue here.

    Also worth bearing in mind that any redundancy pay won't affect the initial (contributions based) JSA, but it will count as 'capital' in respect of any means tested benefits such as housing / council tax benefit, or if you need to claim income based JSA due to having dependents. Again that may or may not be the case here.
  7. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    quote="ohmyliver, post: 11232223, member: 15058"]To cut a long story short.

    Looks like I'm going to be offered redundancy tomorrow. New boss, 'complete re-organisation' of department', etc. I'm not completely unhappy about it as I'm not happy at my work, as it's a combination of boring and stress.

    But I want to know how to get the best out of it. I know that the company I work for are very tight and so I'm unlikely to get anything more that statutory redundancy.

    .[/quote] I'm in more or less the same boat - going in tomorrow to discuss terms of voluntary redundancy. You say they're tight, but you might get remaining holiday and pay in lieu of notice as well. I work in publishing, where perks and cash are very thin on the ground, but the pay in lieu of notice is, before tax, larger than my statutory redundancy, and I might be able to get non taxed if the company doesn't offer it as standard - seems like the PILON isn't statutory, then, but if I get it, then you might too.

    If there's windows for negotiation, have a think if there's anything that's not been done by the book and, if so, bring it up and express your disappointment. In my case, there was a letter I didn't receive, and consequently a meeting I didn't get to discuss options, before I went on my maternity leave (I was informed just before leave that my role was at risk). So I'm totally bringing a copy of that letter and telling them I feel things might have turned out differently if I'd had that meeting, as I think that's a good, solid handle to ask for more money!
  8. Hocus Eye.

    Hocus Eye. Snap, crop, scrap crap

    Cloo, I am sorry to hear that you are being made redundant. Yes make a fuss about the letter, it looks as if they have not followed the procedure properly. This puts you in a stronger negotiating position. Also, if someone else is or will be doing your old job then that is not redundancy. It is the job that becomes redundant not the person. Of course in the circumstances of a complete re-organisation then it is likely that the job/role has become redundant.
  9. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    ok, had first meeting. It would seem that there are new roles, all with a skill requirement that I don't have. The job hasn't required said skills, but they are 'repositioning' so...

    A couple of things has irked me.

    Firstly, the letter (about this meeting) was put on my desk, rather than mailed to my home address, a day before the long bank holiday.

    Secondly my manager had completely forgotten about this meeting (it apparently wasn't in his MS Exchange calender), which is pretty poor considering that it's a department of 5 people (one temp, and said manager included in this 5), two of which have redundancy meetings today.
  10. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    The business case for loss of my role is sound - the team has been quite heavily reorganised, and certain lines of business I was working on dropped, so it's definitely gone. But I think they will be quite embarrassed about the letter, as they do try to be 'the good guys' and won't want to be seen as treating someone on mat leave badly.

    Sorry you had a crap meeting OML - sounds like they're being rather disorganised. Make a note of all this kind of thing so you can say you're not happy how it's been dealt with.
  11. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    I've been keeping notes. I've been informed that I can't bring in a recording device into the next meeting... is this legal?

    I think I might need a lawyer...
  12. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat


    I don't think there's a legal right to record conversations with an unwilling party, and I think I have read on other threads on here that recordings of meetings taken without the other party's knowledge are not admissible evidence at a court / tribunal.

    I think there's a legal right to be accompanied (by a colleague / friend, not necessarily by a union representative) at a disciplinary meeting, not sure about meetings re redundancy.

    What is sometimes worth doing after a meeting is sending the boss an e-mail with your notes of the meeting, and asking for confirmation that s/he thinks this is a true record.

    Are they being difficult?

    Worth talking to ACAS before going much further?
  13. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    well, in the first interview, I plonked my phone on the desk, and said "I'm informing you that I'm recording this", um, and recorded it. What I'm going to do is check the recording against their supplied notes, then if there's significant discrepancies... I'll argue the case more.. The main issue is that audio recordings can be easily modified. I would be happy to send my boss the recording at the end of the interview...

    I did bring a friend in as well.

    The ban on recording just made me think 'hmmmmmmmm why would they ask that.'

    I'll be phoning ACAS tomorrow. As there's things I want to talk about that I'm not happy to talk about here (as I'm a bit paranoid)
  14. equationgirl

    equationgirl Do you believe you can walk on water?

    Hope it goes ok, ohmyliver and Cloo.

    Not following process is the easiest way for a company to slip up, easily avoided too.
  15. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    My meeting was OK. HR lady couldn't guarantee anything, though I think she said that to cover her arse and it probably will happen, but they would try to get me an enhanced redundancy package - whether that means an extra £200 or £2000, I don't know. They had already suggested they'd be willing to do it just on the grounds of this happening while I'm on leave, I suspect mainly as they don't want to shaft me because of the timing, or it to come over that way at least! But she was quite upset, as I thought, about the screw up with the letter and meeting, so maybe they'll throw in a bit more on account of that.

    She's also said she can offer interview training and other re-employment help. We briefly talked freelancing, and I probably will ask them to let me know if they need any in the short term, although I suppose I might have to see what I might get benefits wise and what the issues are.
  16. GarfieldLeChat

    GarfieldLeChat fucking awesome but wrong

    Sounds to me that the meeting isnt following legal lines already. You need to be given notice of at least 3 working days to gain representation. If its just a pre redundancy chat then you need to make note of everything which is promised or said which benefits you and that which is also not true.

  17. GarfieldLeChat

    GarfieldLeChat fucking awesome but wrong

    They can't ban you from recording the covnersation.

  18. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    I can't find that in the link.
  19. GarfieldLeChat

    GarfieldLeChat fucking awesome but wrong

  20. Quartz

    Quartz Eclectic contrarian plebeian

    You'll want to be VERY careful here. HMRC can take a very dim view of this. It's called disguised employment.
  21. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat

    Yes. This is HMRC's take on whether you're really employed or self employed. Some employers try to get out of some of their obligations by shoving casual staff on to 'self employed' status, but it's kinda dubious.

    If you are genuinely going to be self employed, it's worth sorting out

    a) whether you will need professional indemnity insurance (i.e. to cover you if they sue you for allegedly cocking something up)

    b) if you're getting paid by task rather than per hour (which HMRC seem to suggest is more likely for self employed) then you need to make sure that any brief / commission is clear, water-tight and agreed before you start. You do not want to get into the realms of accepting an unquantified amount of work to vague specifications for a fixed sum of money.

    c) bear in mind that your rate for the job shouldn't be the same as the salary you were on - it should be a damn sight more, since you'll be responsible for your own holiday and sick pay, training, and quite possibly tools / equipment, as well as heating / lighting if you'll be working from home. And also the 'back office' work involved in invoicing them, poking them with a stick to pay you, doing tax returns and so on.
  22. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    Oh, I don't think there was any suggestion that they were pushing me or expecting me to take up freelance work for them, we were talking about it casually, as in would I consider doing freelance in general. It's just that if I do, they'r my obvious first port of call. It would be a lot more per hour than I'm on (freelance editing's about £24 per hour as standard). I probably won't be doing it, tbh, as though I do like doing editing, sadly I just don't think I am consistently good enough at it to freelance in general, nor could I be sure of covering my childcare costs with it, as I'd still have to have a two-three days a week of it to work, and that'd cost us 600-800 a month.
  23. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad RIP Greebo being kinder heckling from the back!

    AFAIK, a company planning redundancy as a result of a reorganisation / needing new skills are supposed to think about all other alternatives - such as re-training, before paying off staff.
    Query to OML - have they offered to retrian you for the new role (are the newly required skills something you could (re)train for ??? - assuming you want to stay with the company)
  24. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    yes, there's been mention of retraining, but it's been very nebulous, took me a number of stern emails to get past the 'we're going to deal with that on a case by case basis' (which is odd as I'm the only 'case' involved).... the level of basic incompatibly on display has been very revealing...

    They've been unable to supply *any* evidence of them looking at temporary staff etc also...

    Frankly, the trust relationship has been broken, they're 'going forward' (another buzz phrase I've learned to loathe) on "a punt", with a manager who refers to his staff as 'minions', and used to call us (software testers) "testies" (although he's not worked that one though, otherwise he'd have realised what body part leads the testies).

    They've had massive cash flow problems last year, (leading them to being taken to the small claims court by contractors), so I'm quitting while I'm ahead... sort of...
  25. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat


    and in general, bleurgh.

    It does sound like a good time to get the heck out and get the redundancy pay before they go pop...
  26. ohmyliver

    ohmyliver poppin' like a cork

    I've made it official, and I'm sat at my desk with a big grin listing to Love's My Flash On You, which has the opening line "I don't wanna be in your company".

    I shall listen to The Clash's Career Opportunities next
    Cloo likes this.
  27. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat lumpen proletaricat

  28. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    My HR lady's come back to me with a figure - basically she needs to clear with the CEO an arrangement that will be favourable to me tax-wise. I expect he will OK it, and that should leave me with a decent sum.
  29. Quartz

    Quartz Eclectic contrarian plebeian

    Huh? Anything under £30K is tax-free.
  30. Cloo

    Cloo U R dOin me a friTen

    Yes, of the statutory redundancy payment. Sadly 8 weeks of my pay is not 30k! She's talking about saving me tax on the notice pay.

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