Recommend me some Stockhausen...

[Johnny Canuck3]

Noo. It's pure. Free of artifice. he wrote piano concertos that consist of like six notes on the piano

In keeping with the truism that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, music is meant to be something more than an intellectual exercise in mathematics.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm gonna give you Bach. That one's safe. That's yours to take home. But really, apart from a pretty decent violin concerto, what did schoenberg ever do for us?

12 tone system. Greatest innovation since counterpoint.

 

[scooter]

12 tone system. Greatest innovation since counterpoint

OK I'll give you that. He did actually invent it if you want to be picky. But then what's the good in inventing it if you can't see how far it could go and then push it to the EXTREME

 

[danny la rouge]

You know, for years I avoided the music forum, thinking it'd be arguments between Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple fans about whether Whole Lotta Love was a better riff than Smoke On the Water.

And here we are doing Schoenberg vs Webern.

But the thing is, although Webern saw the horizon, he stood on the shoulders of Schoenberg to see it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

12 tone system. Greatest innovation since counterpoint.

I think 12 tone is a bit of an....anachronism is the word that comes to mind, but that isn't exactly right. It was a product of its time that can't really be understood without examining the backdrop of the other artistic movements of the first half of the 20th century, like Bahaus, the International Style, 'modernism', even constructivism and futurism.

It was an attempt to create something new in art in an attempt to complement the political and social movements of the time, all of which were trying to break with the structures of the 19th century, and the ways of thinking that had led to the destructiveness of empire and WW1.

Imo.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

12 tone was a reaction to, and a rejection of, the past, but because it was mostly intellectual, and not emotional, as music is meant to be, it also has been relegated to the past.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Danny, tell me: when you listen to 12 tone, do you feel inspired? Uplifted? Anything at all, aside from 'well, this is certainly clever'?

 

[danny la rouge]

Danny, tell me: when you listen to 12 tone, do you feel inspired? Uplifted? Anything at all, aside from 'well, this is certainly clever'?

I love all of Schoenberg's work, not just the 12 tone. But, I feel all of that. Same as Bach, really. I feel all of that with Bach.

Mozart's in the Alps, though. Too many arpeggios.

 

[scooter]

It's not so much that you feel clever as you feel cleansed. Same with most of Haydn. It's just so fuckin austere

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I love all of Schoenberg's work, not just the 12 tone. But, I feel all of that. Same as Bach, really. I feel all of that with Bach.

Mozart's in the Alps, though. Too many arpeggios.

Do you find Schoengerg's 12 tone to be comparable to Bach? We'd have to disagree on that. If you want mathematical purity coupled with emotion to create a masterpiece, I'd go with the Brandenburg Concertos. No 12 tone can compare with that.

As for Mozart, I think he's produced some superior symphonies; I can't remember the names anymore; those K numbers always confused me, but it sounds like you just don't like the fuller symphony/sound of the Romantic period.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's not so much that you feel clever as you feel cleansed. Same with most of Haydn. It's just so fuckin austere

Not austere in the way that 12 tone is austere. 12 tone is music divorced from its human roots, music that resonates with the heartbeat.

 

[danny la rouge]

Do you find Schoengerg's 12 tone to be comparable to Bach?

Yes, I do. Very much so.

For me the two just tower over all else. The pinnacle of Bach is the Cello Suites, imo.

I've nothing against the harmonic inventions of the romantic period. Nothing at all, and indeed its extreme expression in Debussy and the Impressionists is very inventive, and engaging. It's just that, to stretch the mountain analogy to breaking point, the Romantic school (I'm not including Beethoven, as some do) was the picturesque peaks of the Tyrol, painted in watercolour.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes, I do. Very much so.

For me the two just tower over all else. The pinnacle of Bach is the Cello Suites, imo.

I've nothing against the harmonic inventions of the romantic period. Nothing at all, and indeed its extreme expression in Debussy and the Impressionists is very inventive, and engaging. It's just that, to stretch the mountain analogy to breaking point, the Romantic school (I'm not including Beethoven, as some do) was the picturesque peaks of the Tyrol, painted in watercolour.

You can't really leave Beethoven out of the Romantic movement.

I'm with you in that the romantics aren't my favourites: Bach is one of my favourite composers. But there is much music created in the romantic period that I enjoy.

My analogy. The romantic period is Hollywood, to Bach's [UK] Handmade Films company.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

How can anyone not like the 1812 Overture, for instance?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Another genius for melding math purity with emotion, is Franz Liszt, imo.

 

[danny la rouge]

You can't really leave Beethoven out of the Romantic movement.

I believe I just did!

I'd argue Beethoven and Schubert were the last of the Classical composers (the former greater than the latter), and that the Romantics begin with Weber and Schumann and those dudes.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

When did Beethoven compose? Doesn't the romantic begin with the end of the napoleonic era, ie 1815?

And the 9th symphony sounds pretty at home in the romantic to me.

 

[danny la rouge]

It isn't about dates; it's about ideas. And, in my view, Beethoven was the culmination of the ideas of the Classical school.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It isn't about dates; it's about ideas. And, in my view, Beethoven was the culmination of the ideas of the Classical school.

Maybe he was transitional. The Eroica and even the 5th, sound different from the Ninth. I think the ninth could be called romantic, with the 3rd still being classical.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I have to go wash my car - inlaws will be in it.


It's been a pleasure, danny. I like talking about stuff like this.

 

[danny la rouge]

Maybe he was transitional.

He certainly was. And young Beethoven was a very different beast from the old raging bull he became.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's been a pleasure, danny. I like talking about stuff like this.

Likewise; it's been a fine day for the erudition of my fellow posters.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. I love some of Cage's work, and I think 4′33″ is a fantastic gag, and I have even heard Frank Zappa's "recording" of it. But anyone who sits studiously through a performance of it, perhaps following the score, is just being a ponce.

And as for Deep Listening (Ltd); it's hippy bollocks, and (as always, with these baby boomer slime bags) a money making scam for the gullible.

I wasn't particularly referring to 4'33" or hippy bollocks. Cage showed a different way of listening to sound that wasn't about following beats/melodies. The partial analogy is the way you appreciate a Jackson Pollock is different from a de Vinci. Didn't know Deep Listening had been trade marked, all I meant was consciously listening to the environment is a good way to train your ear for difficult C20th sonic art. No cash involved, it's tried and tested. Most people aren't used to really listening, so you need a way in for them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

sorry cheesy I absolutely love what stockhausen outputted in fact I really think he was a genius with the invention of speechsong and taking sounds from bird song and pitching it down several octaves etc.

Point of order: Schoenberg "invented" sprechgesang when he wrote Pierrot Lunaire a decade before Stockhausen was born.
What Stockhausen did do was realise the polyphonic potential of it, with beautiful results.

 

[El Jefe]

Wasn't Sprechgesang invented by Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady?

 

[ViolentPanda]

But not on this occasion.

I've nothing against Webern. But he is some way below Schoenberg and Bach.

Although, to be fair, we never got to see Webern's full potential, thanks to a trigger-happy American soldier and Webern's nicotine addiction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wasn't Sprechgesang invented by Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady?

Or Lee Marvin in "Paint Your Wagon"?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree that it's innovative, but after five minutes of listening to 12 tone atonal, I want to use a nail gun on someone's head.

IMO it depends what you're listening to. If it's Roger Sessions, then the nail gun isn't enough, I also want to pour boiling oil on people.

If it's Berg's "Lyric Suite", then I'd enjoy the music too much to want to hurt people.

 

[danny la rouge]

Most people aren't used to really listening, so you need a way in for them.

I'm sorry, but don't you see how that can be taken as, well, patronising?

People don't need to learn to listen properly. People have tastes, and when they hear something new they need a cultural reference point for what they're hearing. That's everyone, not just 'musically uneducated' people.

It's like Cheesypoof said: he got into Stockhousen through Bjork. That was his starting point for the exploration. We all do that. We hear something we like, and when we find out what the influences were, we go looking to see if we like that too. If we do, we look more, if we don't, we take a different avenue. Or like the discussion between Johnny and myself last night: here's Romanticism, so where does that lead us? Eventually to Debussy. But if you took someone steeped in Baroque straight from Bach to Debussy, (maybe using a time machine) the chances are they'll just hear it as alien. It isn't that they need to learn to listen properly, it's just that what they're hearing doesn't make sense to them.

Often we want a little bit alien, but if it's just too alien, if we don't have enough hooks to hang it on, we won't get it. Hmmm. Stay with the hook thing. OK, new music is a net hammock. Our musical culture is the hooks. If we haven't put up the necessary hooks, the hammock won't hang properly, it might even fall on the floor and look to us like a tangled mess, but if we have, we can climb in the hammock and get comfortable. <Looks back on analogy with pride>.

Sometimes the hooks are there, but we just don't like the hammock. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not for us. Then again, sometimes it's a bad hammock.

<I'm going too far now, aren't I? >

 

[wrysmile]

Often we want a little bit alien, but if it's just too alien, if we don't have enough hooks to hang it on, we won't get it. Hmmm. Stay with the hook thing. OK, new music is a net hammock. Our musical culture is the hooks. If we haven't put up the necessary hooks, the hammock won't hang properly, it might even fall on the floor and look to us like a tangled mess, but if we have, we can climb in the hammock and get comfortable. <Looks back on analogy with pride>.

Kyser and I are both now listening to Stockhausen. I'm afraid I've thrown myself out of the hammock and on to the ground. Deliberately.