scott_forester
probably talking shite
The most misused quote in the World.
Rebuke rowdy teenagers say Tories.
- Thread starter scott_forester
- Start date
The most misused quote in the World.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Many people, not just parents or teachers, are perfectly sure of their own moral values, but lack confidence and feel that they will be undermined if they express these in public or allow them to inform their actions.
We mustn't let the Tories be the ones to articulate this, but knee-jerk reactions such as those presented by some people here will give the Tories the freedom to take back the initiative on Laura Norder.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
When I see the vast hordes of politicians clippin the local hoodlums round the ear'ole - with the evidence on Youtube for all to see, then I'll consider it.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Who said anything about politicians clipping hoodlums anywhere?
You're supposed to be a high flying civil servant - how do you think government should address the issues raised by Dominic Grieve?
Heh!
Sounds like a plan.
Just far away enough that their walk back takes long enough for a good nights sleep.
Woof
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Heh! Sounds like a plan. Just far away enough that their walk back takes long enough for a good nights sleep.
Well, that's been done in at least one community I know. No idea if it had the effect, but crime levels haven't fallen because of it, nor has fear of crime. Trouble with that approach, apart from it being illegal and a disproportionate use of force, is that the perpetrators will have no way of preventing the young person they've picked on from getting hurt or killed. And the motives of such vigilantes might not be as pure as they would sugest. In NI the paramiitaries often did such things. They did so as much to create dependency and indulge a pleasure in hurting people as to support any notion of law and order. They didn't reduce crime and. of course, they were the main source of fear of crime.
I wasn't being entirely serious, but it made me smile.
"Won't shut up lad?
Right, in the car!"
"Let me see now, 4 miles an hour walking and I need another seven hours sleep, that's about 28 miles, plus driving time."
"Right then, out you go, feel free to be as noisy as you want on the way home."
"Sorted!"
I'm very fortunate that we don't have these problems where I live.
Woof
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
It made most people smile here, but most people realised the down-side fairly quickly.
I remember the cops did something similar in The Wire, which also involved confiscation of footwear. These things are best left to the professionals.
Firstly it's nothing "new" he has raised at all, just a re-hashing of conservative argument of the last thirty odd years or more.
New Labour are no likely to have an answer to the problems of anti social behaviour than the Tories as they went a long way to creating it.
The me-me-me society and fuck anyone else.
Serious crime has fallen, the independent British Crime Survey proves that.
What people are getting wound up about now is the perception of anti social behaviour and/or low level crime.
The right likes to complain about things having "gone to far" with rights as opposed to responsibilities. I'd say things have "gone to far" with the demonisation of youth by conservatives.
The bloke is on remand now charged with attempted murder but we had a case locally recently where a grumpy pensioner thought kids just out of school were talking too loudly on the platform so he shoved a girl against an incoming train . That's a short sharp shock for the little blighters innit.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
So how would you have government address the perception of anti social behaviour and low level crime? It's real, it takes up massive amounts of police resources and causes ordinary people to feel powerless. The Tories see it as an election campaigning issue and have proposed a policy response.
Should government do nothing?
Should government do nothing?
scott_forester
probably talking shite
I am a Tory and they've not really proposed anything. This is in line with the suggestion a few years ago that they would change the law to stop people who accidentally killed buglers whilst defending their homes wouldn't get charged with murder - this will end up in the same cul-de-sac.
What I would like to see is the two bug parties agree to a standard of reporting the crime rate and for it to be available on a postcode basis. At least when people could check for themselves.
What's real?
Traditional boisterousness has been rebranded anti-social behaviour and anti -social behaviour is being criminalised.
Is that behaviour the problem?
Or is the PERCEPTION of that behaviour the problem?
Changing peoples' perceptions or subjective feeling of personal safety could be tackled in a myriad of ways. Why not have more staff on public transport for example? Train guards and conductors as opposed to arsey security men and revenue protection officers.
But if it is PERCEPTION then politicians and the media and other opinion forming processes in society have to stop getting a stiffy about supposed anti-social behaviour as a QED justification for society to become more draconian and under serveillance.
I think the resources it takes up are partially at least because Britain has turned into a busybody society. There are teenagers drinking cider at the bus stop so you call the police? Christ, it's just normal!
Traditional boisterousness has been rebranded anti-social behaviour and anti -social behaviour is being criminalised.
Is that behaviour the problem?
Or is the PERCEPTION of that behaviour the problem?
Changing peoples' perceptions or subjective feeling of personal safety could be tackled in a myriad of ways. Why not have more staff on public transport for example? Train guards and conductors as opposed to arsey security men and revenue protection officers.
But if it is PERCEPTION then politicians and the media and other opinion forming processes in society have to stop getting a stiffy about supposed anti-social behaviour as a QED justification for society to become more draconian and under serveillance.
I think the resources it takes up are partially at least because Britain has turned into a busybody society. There are teenagers drinking cider at the bus stop so you call the police? Christ, it's just normal!
untethered
For industry & decency
I didn't drink cider at the bus stop when I was a teenager.
But then I didn't go around blaspheming either.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
The proposals are extremely vague, but what Mr Grieve has said sends out the message he wants to give, and it's enough to chime in with what a lot of people feel, The problem for people on the left is that New Labour has been equally vague, and the "proper lefty/liberal" current is averse to dealing with these things because they find it uncomfortable.
It's certainly possible to get reported crime stats by beat. It should be straightforward enough to map it to postcode sectors. It ought not to need political consensus.
I drank cider at the bus stop when I was a teenager.
I smoked in the park at lunchtimes.
I hanged arouund the town centre at night.
I was in pubs drinking under age.
I went to quasi legal parties in the open air.
And I've turned out to be a fairly pleasant guy, respectful of others and active in contributing to my community.
A lot of how I have developed as a person is that I rejected hypocritical conservative bollocks and questioned authority like the holy bloody police from an early age and with retrospect that includes New Labour bollocks too.
@ SF, the best reporting of crime is already outside of the grubby mitts of the politicians via the BCS.
I am not sure mapping stats to postcodes would tell us that much we don't already know.
I smoked in the park at lunchtimes.
I hanged arouund the town centre at night.
I was in pubs drinking under age.
I went to quasi legal parties in the open air.
And I've turned out to be a fairly pleasant guy, respectful of others and active in contributing to my community.
A lot of how I have developed as a person is that I rejected hypocritical conservative bollocks and questioned authority like the holy bloody police from an early age and with retrospect that includes New Labour bollocks too.
@ SF, the best reporting of crime is already outside of the grubby mitts of the politicians via the BCS.
I am not sure mapping stats to postcodes would tell us that much we don't already know.
scott_forester
probably talking shite
It does need one because if the Government tell us some crime is going down the opposition argue it's going up.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Interesting example.
If people perceive the bus stop to be colonised by drunken young people, many won't feel safe to use it. Refugee and asylum seeker groups in Glasgow have highlighted this as something that kept them confined to home - fear of what would happen. You might not agree with their assessment but they made their own minds up, in the light of earlier experience, and concluded where the limit to their safety was.
I believe that many older people also feel unsafe to use public transport in the evenings, for similar reasons.
If young people are gathered together with alcohol, it's definitely a situation where police ought to be involved. I don't think it would be safe for anyone to try and clear that without the necessary back up.
As far as groups of young people drinking alcohol in the streets being "normal" - it really wasn't considered normal when I was a teenager. It is a relatively new phenomenon.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
What impact did the sight of you and your friends doing so have on others? Did it occur to you and your pals that it might be a bit intimidating and unpredictable? How would you have reacted to someone asking or telling you to go away? Do you think people who felt intimidated by your presence might have decided not to travel that evening?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
"Curtain twitchers and the string-em-up brigade" are citizens too, with votes. They presently feel disempowered and a Tory politician is trying to exploit this.
untethered
For industry & decency
In my area there's a heavily-pregnant woman who has been spat on, subjected to verbal abuse and has had her car vandalised by youths who gather outside her house.
What shall I tell her, that I was doing something similar at her age and she should just chill out?
Jesus Christ, Torbour / Laservative law and order circle jerk is now getting dressed up as a way of being nice to refugess is it? Couldn't make it up!
Maybe some people do have a percepion of being intimidated by groups of teenagers at bus stops drinking cider but the activity in itself isn't "bad".
Where do you draw the line, where do your actions impact negatively on someone else?
In some cases it is the actions of the busybodies and the curtain twitchers that impact negatively on the (imvho legitimate) fun of spending a summers evening as a teenager drinking cider.
There are more than enough laws to deal with genuine assaults and vandalism, more police powers aren't needed, it's a politicians soundbite.
Where there is genuine anti social behaviour, the Tories and Labour are part of the problem, not the solution
Maybe some people do have a percepion of being intimidated by groups of teenagers at bus stops drinking cider but the activity in itself isn't "bad".
Where do you draw the line, where do your actions impact negatively on someone else?
In some cases it is the actions of the busybodies and the curtain twitchers that impact negatively on the (imvho legitimate) fun of spending a summers evening as a teenager drinking cider.
There are more than enough laws to deal with genuine assaults and vandalism, more police powers aren't needed, it's a politicians soundbite.
Where there is genuine anti social behaviour, the Tories and Labour are part of the problem, not the solution
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Tell her that there's an aspiring Tory politician on the internet who thinks she's a curtain twitcher and she should just shut up.
"Low level" crime, as another one called it, isn't "low level" to people who have to endure it. And even if someone thinks what they are doing is "normal" it doesn't make it any less unbearable to the victim. I mentioned earlier the perception that black and minority ethnic people have that drunken or noisy behaviour may be racially motivated. Thist might well not be the intention of the perpetrator but it's the impact on the perceived victim that should matter.
What's happening to your neighbour is different. She is clearly being actively victimised and harassed. One problem is that the cops are so busy dealing with the likes of Isambard because ordinary citizens don't feel confident in talking to them that they can't deal with more serious crime like your neighbour has to put up with.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I'm not making it up. I am describing the testimony of refugees in Sighthill and Pollokshaws in Glasgow to research by Strathclyde Passenger Transport in connection with their race equality impact assessment.Jesus Christ, Torbour / Laservative law and order circle jerk is now getting dressed up as a way of being nice to refugess is it? Couldn't make it up!
The activity isn't "bad". The impact is known. The behaviour is illegal and has the effect of excluding people from accessing transport and the community in which they live because it endengers fear and causes others to avoid perceived risk. In a civilised society we adjust our behaviour to minmise adverse impact on others. A bit like some men recognise that if they appear to be following a woman walking alone late at night they will alter their route in order to give some reassurance.
Teenagers are not often aware of the adverse impact their behaviour has on others. They often show contempt for older people in front of their peers, and aren't that worried if these others are a bit scared of them, especially if they're in a group. That's why we need confident adults who can check them.
The police (may) have no time for serious crime becasue there time is being wasted chasing up kids drinking cider at a bus stop (for example) so maybe the idea should be not to chase that up unless it becomes genuine criminal activity?
People can and do need sometimes to reasses their behaviour.
My local takes a VERY dim view of people smoking grass anywhere near the place so in the past we used to go to a block of flats nearby now and again for a smoke. We weren't going to hassle anyone, just have a smoke and go. But then I realised that for people in the flats, it wasn't exactly a good thing so I stopped and encouraged my mates to stop smoking there.
But the whole view of society that the Tories and New Labour have pushed the last 30 years is NOT to give a toss about anyone else. Their ideology is part of the problem.
People can and do need sometimes to reasses their behaviour.
My local takes a VERY dim view of people smoking grass anywhere near the place so in the past we used to go to a block of flats nearby now and again for a smoke. We weren't going to hassle anyone, just have a smoke and go. But then I realised that for people in the flats, it wasn't exactly a good thing so I stopped and encouraged my mates to stop smoking there.
But the whole view of society that the Tories and New Labour have pushed the last 30 years is NOT to give a toss about anyone else. Their ideology is part of the problem.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Well done! See, not all young people are bad. And most eventiually realise these things. But for some it takes a while and during that period the impact on different people can be huge.
untethered
For industry & decency
I don't recall anyone suggesting that was a good thing.
The problem we have now is that it's not just Brighton on a bank holiday but every town centre on every weekend and many suburban areas too.
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