Rebuilding the Union movement?

[Guineveretoo]

Because my resignation has not officially gone through yet. I'm only attending as an observer anyway.

I intend togive pcs one last chance.

What by attending their AGM and slagging off the people who, against a background of aggression and apathy, are desperately trying to protect people's jobs and terms and conditions?

What about giving them "one last chance" by becoming an activist, and getting in there and standing up for people's rights and supporting your colleagues. There is a desperate need of activists in that department. So what do you? Slag the poor sods who do try and help!

 

[soulman]

Are you a full timer Guineveretoo?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Are you a full timer Guineveretoo?

I have never denied that I work for a trade union, so you are not revealing anything by asking that question

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What by attending their AGM and slagging off the people who, against a background of aggression and apathy, are desperately trying to protect people's jobs and terms and conditions?

What about giving them "one last chance" by becoming an activist, and getting in there and standing up for people's rights and supporting your colleagues. There is a desperate need of activists in that department. So what do you? Slag the poor sods who do try and help!

Alright you've thrown down the gauntlet. I'll speak to my shop steward tomorrow morning and re join pcs and volunteer. I bet I'm proved right about pcs though but sometimes you have to attempt a task even if you know its going to fail.

BTW I wasn't going to 'slag' anyone off. More like listen respectfully to see what people say and then make up my mind.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What have you got against "trots"?

They are liars and behave like members of a religious cult.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Now can we please get back on topic about reforming unions for an age which doesn't understand communalism and only understands consumerism.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Now can we please get back on topic about reforming unions for an age which doesn't understand communalism and only understands consumerism.

Since I don't agree with your analysis about what is wrong with trade unions, it's a bit difficult to engage with you on how they need to be reformed

Are you aware of "Unions 21"? If so, what do you think about it as an inititiative working to reform unions?

 

[poster342002]

Yes, I can.

Get involved, get active. Change the local politics.

Ignore the national politics for now, and focus on the problems in the workplace.

Contact the full time official and tell him that you are prepared to be active, and to get involved in the union structure. Also tell the full timer that there is a group of members who are seriously pissed off and who need some support.

And if that approach has no result or is simply ignored? What then?

I've seen what ossified beaurocracies are like: they simply ignore you and endure whiile you exahaust yourself banging your head against a brick wall and eventually tire out and go away.

 

[poster342002]

what can one or two local reps do when the prevailing culture is so bad?

Exactly. How would new reps reverse the habitual mass-scabbing that takes place in such workplaces, for example? I'm not convinced it'd make a lot of difference.

 

[poster342002]

That's not true. Do you read the newsletter?

What, the newsletter that'll ecstatically report "massive" levels of solidarity during the Jan 31 strike whilst completely ignoring the offices such as keyboardjockey's where mass-scabbing took place (again)?

 

[Guineveretoo]

And if that approach has no result or is simply ignored? What then?

I've seen what ossified beaurocracies are like: they simply ignore you and endure whiile you exahaust yourself banging your head against a brick wall and eventually tire out and go away.

Why would it be ignored? Every trade union needs more activists, and there is a serious shortage of PCS activists in the particular bit of the civil service where the OP works. I know for definite that, if he put his name forward to be a rep, this would be taken up, and advice, training and support would be given. I know the full time official, and I know the TUS people, and I know the PCS Branch activists.

It's fair enough to give up if you have tried over and over again, as you detail, but the OP hasn't done that yet

 

[Guineveretoo]

What, the newsletter that'll ecstatically report "massive" levels of solidarity during the Jan 31 strike whilst completely ignoring the offices such as keyboardjockey's where mass-scabbing took place (again)?

No.

I meant the local one, which will certainly not say that, since it is not true in that particular department.

 

[durruti02]

Interesting point. Not sure I agree totally as it removes choice from workers as to what union to belong to. If you get a crap union you can't do anything about it. What I'm proposing is generic unions so that if union A is providing a bad service the workers can decamp to union B.

but the point is removing choice is really meaningless .. all unions are essentally again .. if we only had the one in each sector we would HAVE to make them work ..



No no no. I've worked undera closed shop and they have the potential to be abused. Remember the Ford workers whose union condoned father and son recruitement policies that kept out asian workers from the best jobs. Also the abuses committed by the NGA where you had to be a member to get a job. Sod that.

yes yes we know this .. of course it can and was abused but without it we have NO power .. explain how else we can influennce management?? And tbh i LIKE the idea of father and son/mother daughter policies .. they give continuity and community .. the loss of these type of things we see in the break down of our comunites


Unless its voted on by 2/3rds of members not just those who are bothered to vote.

fair play

Agreed. Make it by DD or standing order.

the RCP line was also not DD/SO .. they argued that stewrads should HAVE to o round and collect cash from each individual member .. forcing them to regularly meet the members and justify where the money goes .. i'm sympathetic to this idea ..
I might have a look at that book. thanks

Long Live Living Marxism!!

...............

 

[SuburbanCasual]

I agree the shop steward should collect the dues

 

[Guineveretoo]

Alright you've thrown down the gauntlet. I'll speak to my shop steward tomorrow morning and re join pcs and volunteer. I bet I'm proved right about pcs though but sometimes you have to attempt a task even if you know its going to fail.

BTW I wasn't going to 'slag' anyone off. More like listen respectfully to see what people say and then make up my mind.

So, are you a PCS rep yet?

 

[nightbreed]

They are liars and behave like members of a religious cult.

Well..... so do the apethetics , in a non-collective way!!

Why dont you just organise amongst the non members to change the pcs!! Or is it that you are just too lazy and couldnt be arsed?
It is easy to moan from the side lines. But doing nothing helps the bosses who love it when the workforce are split.

Your posts earlier do make a lot of sense but you appear to do fuck all!!

Well? What are you going to do about it?

 

[nightbreed]

Now can we please get back on topic about reforming unions for an age which doesn't understand communalism and only understands consumerism.

Show me where todays age understands consumerism?
They are force fed consumerism maybe, but that is not evidence that it is accepted.

 

[exosculate]

Show me where todays age understands consumerism?
They are force fed consumerism maybe, but that is not evidence that it is accepted.

I think there is plenty of evidence that consumerism is ahead of communalism in the minds of many.

 

[nightbreed]

I think there is plenty of evidence that consumerism is ahead of communalism in the minds of many.

Ok I am waiting for the evidence.
Just list it in your next post.

 

[exosculate]

Ok I am waiting for the evidence.
Just list it in your next post.

The shopping mall is god, left politics is dead. Isn't that enough for you.

 

[nightbreed]

The shopping mall is god, left politics is dead. Isn't that enough for you.

well not really.
When I sit in my canteen at work all I see is workers pissed off with their lot.
Maybe a small minority really enjoyloving the work they do , but the vast majority want to do the least amount of work for the most reward they can get.
That is the reality and it is as far from consumerist you can get.
Mind you , if you look at the small minority at work called 'the bosses' well there is a 'consumerist' bunch. They arent union membership material.

 

[Guineveretoo]

well not really.
When I sit in my canteen at work all I see is workers pissed off with their lot.
Maybe a small minority really enjoyloving the work they do , but the vast majority want to do the least amount of work for the most reward they can get.
That is the reality and it is as far from consumerist you can get.
Mind you , if you look at the small minority at work called 'the bosses' well there is a 'consumerist' bunch. They arent union membership material.

You know what? Bosses can be in unions, too

I know it seems strange, but "bosses", at least in the larger organisations and the public sector, also have employment rights and need support at work. Admittedly, they are not always much good at the campaigning, showing solidarity with the working class, stuff but, again, it worries me that people think of trade uions as first and foremost political bodies when, in fact, they are organisations of workers supporting each other at work. Anything beyond that should be as a result of the interests and needs of the membership, and not because of any other political pressure from within or without.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Bosses have unions, the CBI, FSB etc etc

 

[Guineveretoo]

Bosses have unions, the CBI, FSB etc etc

Absolutely, but those organisations don't protect the employment rights of the senior managers, for example, in large organisations, where the main workforce don't want to be in the same trade union.

This was a problem when UNISON came into being, and the porters in hospitals, who had been active NUPE members, discovered that the HR manager and the Chief Executive, against whom they were collectively and individually aggrieved, were also UNISON members.

But those people have the right to be represented and supported, too.

 

[nightbreed]

You know what? Bosses can be in unions, too

I know it seems strange, but "bosses", at least in the larger organisations and the public sector, also have employment rights and need support at work. Admittedly, they are not always much good at the campaigning, showing solidarity with the working class, stuff but, again, it worries me that people think of trade uions as first and foremost political bodies when, in fact, they are organisations of workers supporting each other at work. Anything beyond that should be as a result of the interests and needs of the membership, and not because of any other political pressure from within or without.

Yes , I know that. Workers and bosses have sperate interest. I realise and have represented Managers.
My interest is in organising, key word there, amongst employees on the shop floor.

 

[nightbreed]

Absolutely, but those organisations don't protect the employment rights of the senior managers, for example, in large organisations, where the main workforce don't want to be in the same trade union.

This was a problem when UNISON came into being, and the porters in hospitals, who had been active NUPE members, discovered that the HR manager and the Chief Executive, against whom they were collectively and individually aggrieved, were also UNISON members.

But those people have the right to be represented and supported, too.

My point exactly.

 

[nightbreed]

Bosses have unions, the CBI, FSB etc etc

Doctors and Lawyers have their own organisations. Is it true that the BMA and the Law society operate a 'closed shop'?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Doctors and Lawyers have their own organisations. Is it true that the BMA and the Law society operate a 'closed shop'?

The BMA is a professional association - it's not technically a trade union although, in recent years, it has been called upon more and more to provide advice and support to doctors on contractual and other employment problems. They are not in a position to operate a "closed shop". Doctors don't have to join it in order to practice, either, although they do have to be registered by the GMC, which is a completely different body, but you may be mixing them up, since you seem to think the Law Society and the BMA are similar, and they are not.

The Law Society of England and Wales is the regulatory body for solicitors in England and Wales. With some exceptions, solicitors can only practise if they are registered by the Law Society and, therefore, subject to its regulatory process. It is not a trade union in any sense of the word. Employed lawyers, if they had any sense, would join a trade union as well, and I know lots of lawyers who are members of trade unions.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I've seen what ossified beaurocracies are like: they simply ignore you and endure whiile you exahaust yourself banging your head against a brick wall and eventually tire out and go away.

Yup. got it in one there.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

So, are you a PCS rep yet?

When I have more time and I'm not in the middle of moving house.

I couldn't get to the meeting as I had to work (having had to take two days off to care for my fiancee who had broke her leg I didn't think that it was politic to take time out of work to attend a union meeting. I know you are going to bang on about its my 'right' to attend a union meeting thats not how it is in the real world when mangagment are breathing down your necks and I've already been refused leave to move which means I've got to do it over four evenings ). However, a close friend and colleauge who did attend told me that it was a fucking shambles. The same old faces got elected and it was the same old beauracracy.

Yup I'm going to try to get involved again but I'm not hopeful that the culture can be changed.

Maybe if the union organised more social stuff as well ad dour political wank then people wouldn't be so turned off by union involvement.