Rebuilding the Union movement?

[Guineveretoo]

Organising should be the medium term aim. However you are not going to get peopleinvolved by appealing for organisation. You need to take baby steps on this one I'm afraid. Make people see that their union is worth something and not just a home for arseholes.

So, why aren't you practicising what you preach here, and ensuring that PCS is not a "home for arseholes"?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Yup couldn't agree more. At the moment the unions as presently constitued are a substandard product.

This is just, quite simply, rubbish.

I don't know what else to say about it, to be frank, because it is just that - rubbish

You are basically an ignorant, narrow minded person, who won't listen to advice provided, aren't you?

Basically, it seems to me that you don't agree with the concept of collectivism at all, and know very little about modern trade unions, but simply want to have a good moan and get sympathy for your own position.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Speaking as a lifelong trade unionist and son of trade unionists and a former rep I'd have to agree with a lot of what Keyboard Jockey is saying.

I would still advise people to join the union wherever possible - it's worth it for the things they can do in terms of legal support, and most importantly education especially for reps, I am erternally greatful for the training courses I went on.

But we need to recognise the limitations of most unions and their weakness and often the reluctance of unaccountable fulltimers to actually confront employers or support militant action, and the outright corruption that infests so many.

 

[poster342002]

If you really believe that, then why don't you change it?

Could you explain how he is supposed to do that?

 

[glenquagmire]

I'm a GMB rep and I wish we were more like the PCS rather than just sitting around waiting for cuts to be made then half-heartedly trying to get a decent redundancy package. Not to mention pledging so much money and support to New Labour politicians who ignore union positions on everything.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

But wasn't it you who bemoaned the fact that PCS is only interested in national politics, and has an ineffective local organisation? It is most certainly not "dominated by trots" in your workplace, so you can only be talking national politics here?

The upper levels and other departments other than my own are dominated by trots.

Where are the "shouty ones" in your workplace?

Not in my workplace but in the union in general especially those in charge of communication with members and in the higher levels.

If you really believe that, then why don't you change it?

How? Won't I just be banging my head against a brick wall? Will not the concerns of myself and my colleauges just get ignored and sidelined by those officers higher up from the workplace itself who want to protect their own jobs and ideological positions?

And saveable from what? In what way does it need saving? It is my understanding that they picked up members in the recent dispute, not lost them!

It needs saving from the leadership at present. I used to have respect for Serwoktka but I can see that he is just another grandstander who wants to use the members as cannon fodder.

You are not being open minded. You are condemning PCS because of a small number of activists with whom you disagree.

I think I am being open minded I'm proposing a new way of looking at how to recruit people to unions and how to represent workers.

So, you disagreed with a democratically determined position then, too, and, because you were in a minority, you resigned? Hmm. I detect a pattern.

Democratically determined position - my fucking arse mate - no one invited me to vote at a chapel meeting on giving money to the NGA / SOGAT82 etc. It went through on the nod by the officers. The main reason for my resignation from NUJ was the branches flat refusal to help me as a paying member while they helped those who didn't give a toss about us.

Who says that PCS are in a mess? You say that they are not active in your workplace, and then you say they are dominated by "shouty" "Trots". Both situations are contradictory and both can be dealt with by active involvement of local members.

I should have clarified this. The upper leadership is dominated by trots and plastic revolutionaries whereas the lowest levels are moribund.

That's up to you, as one of those members.

So we call an extraordinary general branch meeting and kick out the current branch officers? Where do we go from there then? Would calls to reform be heeded by the PCS leadership. Not likely in my opinion.

Who is going to represent and support you when your job is up for the chop? Trust me, it won't be GMB. I repeat, in case you haven't understood. GMB cannot represent you in the civil service. Did you get it yet?

Well I can't see PCS doing much good either. Its just a choice between two different types of turd one slightly less smelly than the other. The prevailing comment in my workplace about the PCS officers is 'they sold us down the river' re job cuts.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

This is just, quite simply, rubbish.

I don't know what else to say about it, to be frank, because it is just that - rubbish

Then you are obviously a member of the PCS from another dimension then. To us, here where we are it is a substandrd product.

You are basically an ignorant, narrow minded person, who won't listen to advice provided, aren't you?

I do listen to advice provided but I have less faith then you in the officers and procedures of the PCS. What in your honest opinion would be achieved by following your advice.

Basically, it seems to me that you don't agree with the concept of collectivism

Bollocks! I just think that we need a modern variety of collectivism as the old one has failed.

at all, and know very little about modern trade unions, but simply want to have a good moan and get sympathy for your own position.

If I want sympathy for my own position then I'll go and talk to my work colleauges who are equally as pissed off as I am. I come on here to try to find solutions to the current situation.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Speaking as a lifelong trade unionist and son of trade unionists and a former rep I'd have to agree with a lot of what Keyboard Jockey is saying.

Thanks its nice to be backed up by someone who knows what they are talking about.

I would still advise people to join the union wherever possible - it's worth it for the things they can do in terms of legal support, and most importantly education especially for reps, I am erternally greatful for the training courses I went on.

I second that. For the legal support alone a union is worthwhile.

But we need to recognise the limitations of most unions and their weakness and often the reluctance of unaccountable fulltimers to actually confront employers or support militant action, and the outright corruption that infests so many.

You've hit the nail right on the head. I'm on my lunch break at the moment and a colleauge came up to me and said the problem with PCS is the officers are on the same side as the management. Definitely outright corruption or at the very least a lack of awareness as to whose side they are on.

 

[durruti02]

good thread kj .. see where you coming from but not sure i agree ..

ok some ideas ..

1) industrial ( as opposed to trade) unions .. unions based on whole sectors /industrys rather than trades .. there should only be ONE union in any area .. i.e one for nhs , one for local govt, etc .. or indeed even less .. this sounds like it will make them unwieldy .. true but history shows how very very destructive having more than one union can be .. aslef scabbing on rmt etc . where i work we have a scabby TnG who will always break strikes and so sometimes other generally good unionists can't be bothered to come out as they don't see the point ..

also this means you are much stronger in dealing with management ..


3) closed shop .. you have no or limited power when workers are not in the union .. there is always someone who will break strikes .. we need a major campaign to rebuild this .. ( as an example the SWMF ( pre num) spent the whole of the 3ts in a long and bitter campign to get 100% SWMF/num in south wales .. as part of a campaignthroughout britain .. only with this monopoly were the num able to acheive the progress in wages and conditions they did after the war ..

4) kick out the left!! .. or make them syndicalists .. the left with their obsession with nonsense have driven away many many activists ..

5) so a revival in syndicalism .. unions that will fight oiver basic issues rather than

6) campign against any political affiliation .. this all alienates ordinary members

7) stop the check off .. almost all union members now pay their union dues
thru their employer ( who cream off millions each year across the country .. if this was stopped we would re connect members with stewards ..

p.s. RCP book Taking Control freeman/richards 1983 junius .. had a load of c good ideas and some daft ones ..

 

[KeyboardJockey]

good thread kj .. see where you coming from but not sure i agree ..

ok some ideas ..

1) industrial ( as opposed to trade) unions .. unions based on whole sectors /industrys rather than trades .. there should only be ONE union in any area .. i.e one for nhs , one for local govt, etc .. or indeed even less .. this sounds like it will make them unwieldy .. true but history shows how very very destructive having more than one union can be .. aslef scabbing on rmt etc . where i work we have a scabby TnG who will always break strikes and so sometimes other generally good unionists can't be bothered to come out as they don't see the point ..

also this means you are much stronger in dealing with management ..

Interesting point. Not sure I agree totally as it removes choice from workers as to what union to belong to. If you get a crap union you can't do anything about it. What I'm proposing is generic unions so that if union A is providing a bad service the workers can decamp to union B.

3) closed shop .. you have no or limited power when workers are not in the union .. there is always someone who will break strikes .. we need a major campaign to rebuild this .. ( as an example the SWMF ( pre num) spent the whole of the 3ts in a long and bitter campign to get 100% SWMF/num in south wales .. as part of a campaignthroughout britain .. only with this monopoly were the num able to acheive the progress in wages and conditions they did after the war ..

No no no. I've worked undera closed shop and they have the potential to be abused. Remember the Ford workers whose union condoned father and son recruitement policies that kept out asian workers from the best jobs. Also the abuses committed by the NGA where you had to be a member to get a job. Sod that.

4) kick out the left!! .. or make them syndicalists .. the left with their obsession with nonsense have driven away many many activists ..

Yes. Kick the divisive trots and other such types out of unions.

5) so a revival in syndicalism .. unions that will fight oiver basic issues rather than

Yup make the unions relevant to people again.

6) campign against any political affiliation .. this all alienates ordinary members

Unless its voted on by 2/3rds of members not just those who are bothered to vote.

7) stop the check off .. almost all union members now pay their union dues
thru their employer ( who cream off millions each year across the country .. if this was stopped we would re connect members with stewards ..

Agreed. Make it by DD or standing order.

p.s. RCP book Taking Control freeman/richards 1983 junius .. had a load of c good ideas and some daft ones ..

I might have a look at that book. thanks

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Some good ideas from Durrutti there.

I reckon that we need democratic, militant, rank and file led unions with strong education and organising departments. How do we get there from here though?

Definately agree Broad Left groups are largely useless, dinosaurs who mean well (sometimes) but are incapable of delivering the sort of unions we need - but that doesnt mean we should throw trots out of the unions, that would be a serious mistake - we just have to oppose their attempts to sidetrack union branches with daft issues.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Speaking as a lifelong trade unionist and son of trade unionists and a former rep I'd have to agree with a lot of what Keyboard Jockey is saying.

I would still advise people to join the union wherever possible - it's worth it for the things they can do in terms of legal support, and most importantly education especially for reps, I am erternally greatful for the training courses I went on.

But we need to recognise the limitations of most unions and their weakness and often the reluctance of unaccountable fulltimers to actually confront employers or support militant action, and the outright corruption that infests so many.

I agree with a lot of what he says, too

What I don't agree with is him refusing to take any advice or support to help him to become a union activist, for example.

You are misunderstanding the role of trade union staff. They are only the employees, and can only do what they are instructed. The unions rely on their members. Resigning in protest because the union is inactive is just childish.

IMHO!

 

[Guineveretoo]

Could you explain how he is supposed to do that?

Yes, I can.

Get involved, get active. Change the local politics.

Ignore the national politics for now, and focus on the problems in the workplace.

Contact the full time official and tell him that you are prepared to be active, and to get involved in the union structure. Also tell the full timer that there is a group of members who are seriously pissed off and who need some support.

 

[Guineveretoo]

The upper levels and other departments other than my own are dominated by trots.

Not in my workplace but in the union in general especially those in charge of communication with members and in the higher levels.

How? Won't I just be banging my head against a brick wall? Will not the concerns of myself and my colleauges just get ignored and sidelined by those officers higher up from the workplace itself who want to protect their own jobs and ideological positions?


It needs saving from the leadership at present. I used to have respect for Serwoktka but I can see that he is just another grandstander who wants to use the members as cannon fodder.


I think I am being open minded I'm proposing a new way of looking at how to recruit people to unions and how to represent workers.

Democratically determined position - my fucking arse mate - no one invited me to vote at a chapel meeting on giving money to the NGA / SOGAT82 etc. It went through on the nod by the officers. The main reason for my resignation from NUJ was the branches flat refusal to help me as a paying member while they helped those who didn't give a toss about us.


I should have clarified this. The upper leadership is dominated by trots and plastic revolutionaries whereas the lowest levels are moribund.


So we call an extraordinary general branch meeting and kick out the current branch officers? Where do we go from there then? Would calls to reform be heeded by the PCS leadership. Not likely in my opinion.



Well I can't see PCS doing much good either. Its just a choice between two different types of turd one slightly less smelly than the other. The prevailing comment in my workplace about the PCS officers is 'they sold us down the river' re job cuts.

What have you actually tried?

Did you contact the person whose details I gave you?

Do you want some other names of people who would love to hear from a potential union rep in your department?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Then you are obviously a member of the PCS from another dimension then. To us, here where we are it is a substandrd product.


I do listen to advice provided but I have less faith then you in the officers and procedures of the PCS. What in your honest opinion would be achieved by following your advice.


Bollocks! I just think that we need a modern variety of collectivism as the old one has failed.


If I want sympathy for my own position then I'll go and talk to my work colleauges who are equally as pissed off as I am. I come on here to try to find solutions to the current situation.

I am not a member of PCS at all. I completely agree with you, publicly and privately, that PCS in your department is not working. It's ripe for new activists.

You just won't try, will you?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Thanks its nice to be backed up by someone who knows what they are talking about.


I second that. For the legal support alone a union is worthwhile.



You've hit the nail right on the head. I'm on my lunch break at the moment and a colleauge came up to me and said the problem with PCS is the officers are on the same side as the management. Definitely outright corruption or at the very least a lack of awareness as to whose side they are on.

Are you suggesting that I don't know what I am talking about? I think there is every chance that I have been involved in trade unions for longer than either of you!

So, why did you leave PCS?

So, who are these officers who are on the same side as management? They are not the same people that suburbancasual was talking about. In fact, I think you have completely misunderstood what s/he is saying

 

[Guineveretoo]

Interesting point. Not sure I agree totally as it removes choice from workers as to what union to belong to. If you get a crap union you can't do anything about it. What I'm proposing is generic unions so that if union A is providing a bad service the workers can decamp to union B.



No no no. I've worked undera closed shop and they have the potential to be abused. Remember the Ford workers whose union condoned father and son recruitement policies that kept out asian workers from the best jobs. Also the abuses committed by the NGA where you had to be a member to get a job. Sod that.


Yes. Kick the divisive trots and other such types out of unions.


Yup make the unions relevant to people again.


Unless its voted on by 2/3rds of members not just those who are bothered to vote.


Agreed. Make it by DD or standing order.


I might have a look at that book. thanks

You just don't have a clue, do you?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yes, I can.

Get involved, get active. Change the local politics.

Its not just the local politics that are the problem it is the departmental level union politics. The officials seem to have forgotten whose subs keep their expense accounts and conference jollies paid for. They sit IN THE SAME OFFICE as HR people yet there is an inability or unwilingness to challenge this sort of behaviour. Even one of the pickets durin the strike said 'well, its not really a problem is it if the officers sit with HR people' I was gobsmacked by the complacency of that comment.

Ignore the national politics for now, and focus on the problems in the workplace.

I see what you are getting at but I still think that the national politics will come back and bite us on the bum. What if we refuse to get involved in one of the trots pet projects or refuse to do something that pcs's more apolitical members think is party political? Will we still get backing from the full timers?

Contact the full time official and tell him that you are prepared to be active, and to get involved in the union structure. Also tell the full timer that there is a group of members who are seriously pissed off and who need some support.

I'll do that but first I'm going to attend the branch AGM tomorrow to see what is being said.

But back on topic......Some form of competition for members between unions might be a good thing. It would certainly deal with a lot of complacency. The threat of members going to a better union would keep them on their toes. Why not use competition to improve the performance of unions?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What have you actually tried?

I've tried speaking to my shop steward. I've also tried speaking ot other union officers at my place.

Did you contact the person whose details I gave you?

Not yet (see my other reply)
Do you want some other names of people who would love to hear from a potential union rep in your department?

As I said before let me see what is going to happen at the AGM tomorrow.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You just don't have a clue, do you?

Don't just say 'you don't have a clue' tell me why you disagree with what I wrote.

Which bit do you have a problem my position on the closed shop or the political fund or what?

 

[exosculate]

The problems with unions, which are many, stem from the apathetic membership. An active membership could/would hold the leadership to account. In normal circumstances this does not happen, hence the leadership fail their members.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I am not a member of PCS at all. I completely agree with you, publicly and privately, that PCS in your department is not working. It's ripe for new activists.

You just won't try, will you?

Look we have been sold down the river by pcs in my department people are in no mood to re engage with it at the moment. The pcs is not working but I'm not sure whether new activists will change matters.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The problems with unions, which are many, stem from the apathetic membership. An active membership could/would hold the leadership to account. In normal circumstances this does not happen, hence the leadership fail their members.

Spot on. We have had people frightened off by pcs national being over political totheir opinion and also demoralised by the departmental leadership therefore they get apathetic and the trots keep their power because of peoples apathy.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Look we have been sold down the river by pcs in my department people are in no mood to re engage with it at the moment. The pcs is not working but I'm not sure whether new activists will change matters.

No you haven't.

The union has been inactive.

It relies on local reps.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

No you haven't.

PCS has done bugger all regarding the cuts. And if they have thenit hasn't been communicated tothe averagemember.

The union has been inactive.

An understatement. I've seen quicker hibernating tortoises.

It relies on local reps.

Agreed but what can one or two local reps do when the prevailing culture is so bad? I can see two or three directorates where new reps would make a difference locally though.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Its not just the local politics that are the problem it is the departmental level union politics. The officials seem to have forgotten whose subs keep their expense accounts and conference jollies paid for. They sit IN THE SAME OFFICE as HR people yet there is an inability or unwilingness to challenge this sort of behaviour. Even one of the pickets durin the strike said 'well, its not really a problem is it if the officers sit with HR people' I was gobsmacked by the complacency of that comment.

I see what you are getting at but I still think that the national politics will come back and bite us on the bum. What if we refuse to get involved in one of the trots pet projects or refuse to do something that pcs's more apolitical members think is party political? Will we still get backing from the full timers?




I'll do that but first I'm going to attend the branch AGM tomorrow to see what is being said.

But back on topic......Some form of competition for members between unions might be a good thing. It would certainly deal with a lot of complacency. The threat of members going to a better union would keep them on their toes. Why not use competition to improve the performance of unions?

Who are these officials?

Earlier on, you claimed the TUS was dominated by the other unions in your department, so who are these official who sit IN THE SAME OFFICE as HR people?

I can tell you now that there are no PCS officials, either elected or paid, who share an office with HR people in your department, other than because it's open plan.

Why aren't you prepared to give it a chance? You have never been active in PCS, all you have ever done is to slag them off, and then claim to have resigned. How are you going to attend their AGM if you have resigned? Come to that, why would you attend their AGM if you have resigned?

 

[Guineveretoo]

PCS has done bugger all regarding the cuts. And if they have thenit hasn't been communicated tothe averagemember.


An understatement. I've seen quicker hibernating tortoises.


Agreed but what can one or two local reps do when the prevailing culture is so bad? I can see two or three directorates where new reps would make a difference locally though.

That's not true. Do you read the newsletter?

Fucking try, ffs, instead of just condemning the whole union because your perception which is, at best, ignorant!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Come to that, why would you attend their AGM if you have resigned?

Because my resignation has not officially gone through yet. I'm only attending as an observer anyway.

I intend togive pcs one last chance.

 

[Guineveretoo]

The problems with unions, which are many, stem from the apathetic membership. An active membership could/would hold the leadership to account. In normal circumstances this does not happen, hence the leadership fail their members.

Agreed.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Spot on. We have had people frightened off by pcs national being over political totheir opinion and also demoralised by the departmental leadership therefore they get apathetic and the trots keep their power because of peoples apathy.

Make your mind up!

What have you got against "trots"?