Really not trying to tread on toes but...

[pooka]

I'd generally agree with you han, judge the person not the class. I think in the context of these threads, though, a lot of the 'gentrification' arguements denounce incoming middleclasses and miss minnie (I think) is suggesting that there's nothing new in that.

Also (and again in the context of the gentrification debate) for the middleclasses, impoverishment is often (barring illness or disability) a matter of choice - sometimes after enjoying considerable advantages. For working class people, it can feel like a default.

hendo & ratunta: I think pickman's may be having a little politico's joke about the Respect Unity Coalition

 

[hendo]

hendo & ratunta: I think pickman's may be having a little politico's joke about the Respect Unity Coalition

Aaaah.


What's that then?

 

[RatuntaMcBlart]

I'd generally agree with you han, judge the person not the class. I think in the context of these threads, though, a lot of the 'gentrification' arguements denounce incoming middleclasses and miss minnie (I think) is suggesting that there's nothing new in that.

Also (and again in the context of the gentrification debate) for the middleclasses, impoverishment is often (barring illness or disability) a matter of choice - sometimes after enjoying considerable advantages. For working class people, it can feel like a default.

hendo & ratunta: I think pickman's may be having a little politico's joke about the Respect Unity Coalition

Oh right, I guessed he was kidding - as hendo says, it's now the PSNI. Did you know it was originally (right hand up to God) going to be called Northern Ireland Police Service before someone duly pointed out what the acronym would be?

 

[miss minnie]

But perhaps they ARE middle class!

Let's face it, most people in the squat scene were (and are). Alot of us have done a bit of that years ago, squatting, having brightly coloured hair etc, and many people who post on this site will be middle class. So what?

the well-off middle class scene crusties buggered off when meetings were called and evictions happened. they took that job that daddy offered them along with the deposit for a flat.

your friends might have been weekend warriors but the people i still know, and me, fought long and hard to form and get into co-ops and ha's because we had no alternative. for me it wasn't about coloured hair or squat parties but 18 years of co-op meetings and mgt committees.

i lived in a squat co-op for 8 years and in a short-life co-op for 10 years. now i'm part-owner of a ha flat and i probably look pretty middle-class now.

agree with the rest of your post, though.

 

[pooka]

Aaaah.
What's that then?

Tsk, tsk...I thought you were up on current affairs!

It's Gorgeous George Galloway's 57 varieties of Trot, all in one can.

They've produced a nice little animation though (needs sound turned on).

 

[IntoStella]

It's Gorgeous George Galloway's 57 varieties of Trot, all in one can.
They've produced a nice little animation though (needs sound turned on).

Damn, I hoped that was going to be the Monty Python People's Front of Judea sketch, which they played on the Today programme the other day to celebrate Wespec's first schism (bless!). Gorgeous George had a major SoH failure over that one. Especially when they were accused of Stalinism.

 

[Bob]

Teejay - your quote is from a Haile Selassie speech that Bob Marley was quoting (e.g.http://www.bobmarley.com/life/rastafari/war_speech.html) He made it to the United Nations in 1963 hence Anglola & Mozambique were still under colonial rule (only becoming independent in 1974 when the Portuguese fascists were overthrown)...interestingly in his first paragraph Haile Selassie quotes Abraham Lincoln & Wendell Phillips (both major political figures in ending slavery). He also quotes supportively UN intervention (in practice mainly US & UK) in Korea amongst over places.

 

[han]

the well-off middle class scene crusties buggered off when meetings were called and evictions happened. they took that job that daddy offered them along with the deposit for a flat.

your friends might have been weekend warriors but the people i still know, and me, fought long and hard to form and get into co-ops and ha's because we had no alternative. for me it wasn't about coloured hair or squat parties but 18 years of co-op meetings and mgt committees.

No, my friends weren't weekend warriors - they were squatting for years, full-time activists, and some still are. And most weren't well off. (The ones that were went off to India or bought a canal boat with Daddy's money when they got bored).

But most of the people in the squat scene I knew WERE middle class, and that's the point I'm trying to make. Being middle class doesn't mean that you're necessarily well off. Alot of the activists I know who still live like that are living on benefits, and yet they're from middle class backgrounds. And they don't have 'daddy's money' to fall back on. I certainly never had any of that!

Anyway - the point I'm trying to make is that the problem with housing/yuppification in Brixton is not really about class - it's about people with surplus money - people who have money and flash it around and drink in yuppie bars. WHATEVER class they are.

 

[pooka]

Damn, I hoped that was going to be the Monty Python People's Front of Judea sketch, which they played on the Today programme the other day to celebrate Wespec's first schism (bless!). Gorgeous George had a major SoH failure over that one. Especially when they were accused of Stalinism.

Here

'Democratic Socialist Alliance People Before Profit' party. Love it!

 

[IntoStella]

Here 'Democratic Socialist Alliance People Before Profit' party. Love it!

Ah, the joys of Listen Again. Fantastic!

 

[TeeJay]

Yes TeeJay, we all know "race" is a construct... in theory. But if a black man tells you he's black, he's black. Or if he says so, Black. OK. It's up to him.

So you are saying that someone who constructs a bullshit theory about "whites are descended from apes with tails" etc, and "the black race should be separate and is superior" isn't constructing just the same load of crap as people banging on about "aryans" and so forth?

I entirely accept that "black" is often used as a shorthand by many different people and therefore can mean many different things. What I am specifically rejecting is that anyone can be objectively "black" or "white" - they obviously can't as I have never in my life seen black or white skin. I also am rejecting that there are separate and distinct races, and that skin colour etc have any bearing on all the important things about a person. People to me are 'defined' by things like their nationality, language, religion, culture, beliefs, wealth (or lack of) and so forth, and their DNA plays little no no role in determining any of these things. Even when DNA or 'phenotype' is examined carefully it can be seen that people vary in vastly more ways than simple skin colour - millions of ways in fact - and if you are being accurate you will find that you simply cannot separate humans up into separate and distinct races - it is all a vast continum of many different features and aspects of someone's internal and external body, with a whole mix and match of many different things.

I can accept someone choosing a convenient label for themselves which might mean many things, but I won't accept racial theories, no matter what shade of skin the person pushing them has. It's up to you to join the 'real world' - in terms of what science, history, geography, politics, law, anthropoly and linguistics tell us, rather than just go along with a tabloid version of the world simply because it currently has a monopoly on 'the way it is'. For example - isn't it good that people can define for themselves what it is to have a certain sexuality these days, or what it is to be of a ceratin gender - rather than have society stick a lable on people and tell them what they are? But by doing this it calls into question what we meant by sexuality and gender in the first place. I believe that "race" will soon be deconstructed and reconstructed in the near future also.

 

[Streathamite]

what are you suggesting, rj?

I am enquiring whether we will be honoured by the presence of the full family unit.

 

[tom796]

People to me are 'defined' by things like their nationality, language, religion, culture, beliefs, wealth (or lack of) and so forth, and their DNA plays little no no role in determining any of these things.

(to second clause)

 

[Stobart Stopper]

I am enquiring whether we will be honoured by the presence of the full family unit.

NO! He aint coming!

He moans all the time.

 

[hatboy]

TeeJay - I know! I know! OK. I agreed with you all along. You're not the only person who is aware of this you know. It's just the way you discuss it gets on my tits.

I told you before I'm more used to plain speaking south London - where your theory is an accepted norm - black, white, mixed getting on with it and not thinking about it. But also where you can still get abuse for your sexuality or colour and where saying "but please sir, we're all one race" (although true) won't save you from a beating.

This is what I mean by living in the real world. Please go educate someone else dear.

 

[TeeJay]

Please go educate someone else dear.

Just point me in the right direction!