Really not trying to tread on toes but...
- Thread starter RatuntaMcBlart
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Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
isvicthere? said:
You mean they didn't go IN?
Rollem said:tell us what constitutes working class and i am sure we'll all answer.
i was brought up working class, but got told the other day my degree means i aint anymore. the shame of it
It all depends. In the States your current status dictates your class, whereas in England I believe your class is inherited. Again it's all very non-scientific and impossible to prove, but academically this is a commonly held view.
As for "the shame of it", I know you are being sarcastic like, but I think that it raises a fair point. The whole gentrification argument makes people ashamed of their class, and you see people getting into ridiculous arguments trying to outdo each other's levels of working classness. A conversation about yuppification on the other hand, would surely unite everyone as anyone with a shred of decency knows yuppies are pretty much all terrible cunts.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Ratunta, I think you're confusing class and gentrification. Being middle class does not necessarily mean you are a gentrifier (although most "gentrifiers" will be probably be middle class).RatuntaMcBlart said:
I was born into a working class family. My parents are typical examples of a lot of over-50s british people who have benefitted from the post-war economic boom and are now probably considered "middle class". That doesn't necessarily mean I am a gentrifier and in fact, as you know, I am actively against it and take steps to support the fight against it.
isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
Minnie_the_Minx said:You mean they didn't go IN?
Steady on! There's glad handing the proles and there's unnecessarily courting danger! (Plus the very real possibility of a bad smell!)
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
isvicthere? said:
Oh, wouldn't want to offend his Lordship's delicate schnozzle now would we?
Brixton Hatter said:
I see your point Hatter, and I do accept that I am using a very basic definition of gentrification here. But any elaboration on the basic definition is a matter of personal opinion - you say you aren't a gentrifier because you oppose gentrification, but surely you must concede that your opposition to it does not effect the cold facts.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I was brought up in an upper working class/lower middle class family.
I have a degree and a job and moved to Brixton about 15 months ago.
I work for a drug rehab and counselling service.
I tend to go out drinking in The Albert, Hob or Windmill.
I sometimes shop at the market and local shops, sometimes in supermarkets.
I sometimes go to The Ritzy cinema.
I buy my booze at the local off licences.
Where do I fit in? Am I part of the problem? I don't think so, but someone might think I am.
I have a degree and a job and moved to Brixton about 15 months ago.
I work for a drug rehab and counselling service.
I tend to go out drinking in The Albert, Hob or Windmill.
I sometimes shop at the market and local shops, sometimes in supermarkets.
I sometimes go to The Ritzy cinema.
I buy my booze at the local off licences.
Where do I fit in? Am I part of the problem? I don't think so, but someone might think I am.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Blagsta said:I was brought up in an upper working class/lower middle class family.
I have a degree and a job and moved to Brixton about 15 months ago.
I work for a drug rehab and counselling service.
I tend to go out drinking in The Albert, Hob or Windmill.
I sometimes shop at the market and local shops, sometimes in supermarkets.
I sometimes go to The Ritzy cinema.
I buy my booze at the local off licences.
Where do I fit in? Am I part of the problem? I don't think so, but someone might think I am.
YUPPY YUPPY YUPPY
RatuntaMcBlart: A lot of this has been covered in Who is at "fault" for the gentrification of Brixton? . Have you had chance (the tenacity!) to read it?
For myself, I'd agree that the process has been a continuum and we're mostly all part of it (set out at greater length here )
For myself, I'd agree that the process has been a continuum and we're mostly all part of it (set out at greater length here )
[honest autobiography] i consider myself to be middle class and am not ashamed of it like most of the m/c posters here. i am fiercely proud of my parents who were both born into working class families and worked very hard and had luck in education to enable to them to get good, though not particularly well paid, jobs as teachers. if there's any shame in me, it's just that my own efforts (and i work as hard as i can at everything i do) will never look as good as theirs because of where i've come from. i have lived here all my life and, despite my background, feel no solidarity at all with the gentrifiers, yuppies etc. in fact, they make me feel distinctly uncomfortable. i'm not gay, but i am a little fucked up, and i occasionally like to espouse the marginalised poet persona: i'm too 'out there' for the conservatives and too conservative for the 'out theres'. [/honest autobiography]
i will regret posting that
i will regret posting that
pooka said:
Yeah I did have a wee look at it, but it was too long and my ADD kicked in so I had to leave it. I'm glad people have clarified things, I understand you all better now. Still can't help thinking you should be more worried about yuppies specifically. If more middle class people move here I can't see it's a problem as long as they respect the place and aren't up their own arses.
Rollem said:
I agree with this, mostly. Moving into an area and paying a high price for a property squeezes out people on lower incomes - that's not a variable. But a variable is the accompanying attitudes. Most of us would like changes around our home areas, the bad side of this is if people move into an area and for example couldn't give a toss about local schools because they will have done with 'edgy' and moved to 'leafy' by the time their kids are at school.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
actually EVERYONE on this thread is W/C, strictly speaking. Economic definition, y/see. If you have no ownership of the means of production distribution and exchange-you're working class. simple as.RatuntaMcBlart said:
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
The problem is that many (some?) middle class people who move here DONT see the problems and don't understand the local issues. They don't necessarily "respect the place" and from what we've seen on the "Toff rebuffed at PROD thread" some are up their own arses.RatuntaMcBlart said:
Red Jezza said:
Well I don't know about "strictly speaking". Strictly speaking, and by the dictionary definition, you are only working class if your job involves manual, blue collar trades like plumbing etc. The viewpoint you give above is based on Karl Marx' definition (if I'm not mistaken) and Marxism is pretty far from a unversally accepted point of view.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
probably, yes. and I see nothing wrong with being either young, urban or 'professional', whatever that means. I posted that post up because I am p-ed off with the blanket demonisation of all incomers as 'yuppie scum'. They are not, the majority (I'm willing to bet) are just trying to get by, though I'd concede that the attitudes of a minority (the Tallulah army?) are quite grotesque.Belushi said:
Given that the history of humankind is one of migration-and given that Brixton is a place with a tube stop AND a LOT of victorian/edwardian terracing, it's ridiculous to indulge in an orgy of histrionics about incomers. The only issue is whether the community is economically defended, and whethe the incomers assimilate on the Ts & Cs laid down by the locals
Red Jezza said:
It's not just the young urban professionalism that makes someone the classic yuppie though, it's their behaviour and their attire and their chat. And those are the enraging parts.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Absolutely.Red Jezza said:
Red Jezza said:
Well Said.
For the record, My story.
I'm middle class, my parents both worked in the public sector. They gave us a nice childhood & I grew up in various small towns & went to art college in one.
In 1994 I moved to London as I'd been offered a job. I moved to East Dulwich which I fucking hated 'cause 10 years ago it was a blue rinse wasteland.
I made friends in London, two of whom lived in Brixton. I started spending most of my social life here and in 1995 moved in with them - not because I thought it was trendy or 'edgy' but because I just liked the place. It felt good compared to most other areas in London, IMO.
Shortly after that I quit my job as it was tedious and embarked on what I really wanted to do. I spent the next 2 years working abroad.
When in 1997 I returned, I got the tube from Heathrow to Brixton & went to said friends house and felt an overwhelming sense of being 'home'.
I have lived here ever since in quite a few houses. In 2000 my g/f & I decided to live together and rented a one bed flat which by 2002 was just to small for our expanding lives.
To rent a bigger flat would've worked out more expensive than a mortgage so we decided to buy. We spent months looking for somewhere and were very dissolusioned by the general prices of things but were resolutly not prepared to look anywhere but Brixton as it's our home. We eventually found a good deal
confused: ) on a place in the very heart of Brixton which needed a lot of TLC of which I have given it - myself. I've used local buisnesses for all materials & supplies.I guess we are both 'professonal' although I'm freelance & it's been a long haul - still is - and even now, money gets pretty damn tight quite reguarly.
I drink in the Trinity or the Effra, enjoy drunken sessions at the Windmill sometimes have a bacon sandwich in Phoenix, sometimes in The Lounge and when we've got a bit of cash we've been known to go to nice restaurants up in town and occasionally (hell & damnation on my soul) even enjoyed the odd cocktail in Tongue & Groove and have had the odd cracking night in the Dogstar mostly with our other friends that have lived in Brixton for similar periods of time and made it their home to.
Is that a problem? Or am I, as I suspect, a reasonably(within context) typical Brixton resident.
(have I said too much
)
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
err, yeah, like I said...RatuntaMcBlart said:
Red Jezza said:
Just the way you said "I see nothing wrong with being either young, urban or 'professional'" I thought you meant people called people yuppies for these reasons alone.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
ahh, pennies duly drop....RatuntaMcBlart said:
Pie1...why dontcha drop in on the Albert next time we gotta drinks night? even - dare I say it - Offline?
Red Jezza said:
Cheers, probably will. I had all intentions of going to Offline last week, but got snagged by a 'quick pin't at the Trinity
(which remindes me Mike, I've not forgotten about the promised server donation that i was going to give you then - might try and pop it into the Albert later
)Tom said:
"i'm too 'out there' for the conservatives and too conservative for the 'out theres'."
You sound just my sort of person. Say hello if you see me around. I really relate to your description of your character.
My parents story is a bit like that btw. Ordinary but tried hard to rise up you know. (But a bit like Mrs Bucket or something; my dad thought my aunty Ethel and Uncle Reg were "common". LOL).
"i'm too 'out there' for the conservatives and too conservative for the 'out theres'."
You sound just my sort of person. Say hello if you see me around. I really relate to your description of your character.
My parents story is a bit like that btw. Ordinary but tried hard to rise up you know. (But a bit like Mrs Bucket or something; my dad thought my aunty Ethel and Uncle Reg were "common". LOL).
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
Red Jezza said:
What are the terms and conditions?
If I am in breach, will I be ejected? If I didn't know about them before I moved in, do they count? If they're not known to me now I have arrived, do they matter?
And how are they enforced?
"Terms and conditions for incomer assimilation" is much talked of on the Right these days. It's an authoritarian fantasy, and surely, grossly inappropriate for a place like Brixton.
The economic part of the argument that AK often puts here though, I tend to agree with.
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