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Really beginning to piss me off now.

Well you did ask for suggestions! I will take my "Daily Mail" type of response and not darken your thread anymore.
Maybe you should go out with a tray of tea and biscuits and ask the dealers if they would kindly consider moving orf up the street a little way.


story said:
No, they haven't yet... I knew someone would, though.

I hate hate hate those things.

I don't want to live under a Stasi type light, thank you.

My bedroom is over the front door, it would wake me up. We live on a busy street, passers-by would trigger it. Housemates coming home would trigger it. It adds to light pollution.

It's a Daily Mail reader type of response, in my opinion.

Anyway, such a measure does nothing to address the underlying problem.
 
Call Lambeth DAT ask if you can pass a message to Lambeth Service Users Group. They may be able to communicate a message to users about not leaving sharps around etc. Probably won't work, but worth a shot maybe?
 
story said:
Anyway, such a measure does nothing to address the underlying problem.

To be fair, neither does the police moving them on, really.

You did ask for suggestions, and the only suggestions that are going to help your situation are ones that involve moving the users somewhere else, which doesn't address the underlying problem likee you say.

Personally, I think I would rather that these people are congregating somewhere in central Brixton, be it Windrush Square or the Peace Gardens, than hanging about in residential streets.

It seems that the whole dispersal zone thing is more about making the problem look like it's gone away rather than actually solving it.
 
teuchter said:
only suggestions that involve moving the users somewhere else, doesn't address the underlying problem

Personally, I think I would rather that these people are congregating somewhere in central Brixton, be it Windrush Square or the Peace Gardens, than hanging about in residential streets.

It seems that the whole dispersal zone thing is more about making the problem look like it's gone away rather than actually solving it.

slightly edited, but this is the nail on the head

drugs is s social probelm that wont be got rid of by shifting people around

surely better to have someone blazing rocks in a area where help is quicker at hand than a darkened residential street
 
I appreciate that this is hardly a consolation for anyone on the edges of the dispersal zones, but for someone who lives in a residential street close to Windrush Square, the dispersal zones have been great.
More importantly, the market for dealers has been significantly disrupted as it is harder for dealers to target central areas with lots of club/pub goers.
But I accept the problem has only been moved rather than solved.


teuchter said:
To be fair, neither does the police moving them on, really.

You did ask for suggestions, and the only suggestions that are going to help your situation are ones that involve moving the users somewhere else, which doesn't address the underlying problem likee you say.

Personally, I think I would rather that these people are congregating somewhere in central Brixton, be it Windrush Square or the Peace Gardens, than hanging about in residential streets.

It seems that the whole dispersal zone thing is more about making the problem look like it's gone away rather than actually solving it.
 
RushcroftRoader said:
I appreciate that this is hardly a consolation for anyone on the edges of the dispersal zones, but for someone who lives in a residential street close to Windrush Square, the dispersal zones have been great.
More importantly, the market for dealers has been significantly disrupted as it is harder for dealers to target central areas with lots of club/pub goers.
But I accept the problem has only been moved rather than solved.

Sure.

I've got a friend who lives just off Electric Avenue and I know the problems they have there. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be removed form residential streets in Central Brixton, just that letting them stay in public spaces should maybe be tolerated instead of moving them into quiet streets, where, if something does kick off there will be less people around to intervene.

I'd much rather be confronted by an agitated crack addict where there are other people around than when I'm on my own on my street. And I don't see a big problem with them using the Peace Gardens, for example, at night - no-one else wants to go in there and no-one needs to walk through there to get home.

Also your point about disrupting the market for dealers - fair enough but dealers and users are different problems to some extent, aren't they? Would be possible to move dealers on without necessarily dispersing users as well.
 
I live within the dispersal zone, but nearer the edge. I appreciate that in some areas it has made things better, but where I am it's become a lot worse.

In part for me it is because the house next door to me is pretty derelict and has the appearance of being empty (though it's not), so the front garden and doorway are an obvoius attraction to addicts. It has always been used a bit, but whereas it used to be just individuals from time to time now bigger groups are congregating there. It also seems that it's being used as a meeting place for dealing as well as just somewhere addicts go to use.

This situation is making me feel unsafe. Nothing's happened yet, but I do feel very vulnerable when I'm having to go right past a group of 4-5 people who are almost on my doorstep to get in or out of my flat.

I agree with what some others have said about the difference between being in public spaces and being in quieter residential streets. I can take steps to avoid any problems in public areas, and there are also other people around which makes it feel safer. I can't avoid people who are sitting on my garden wall who I need to walk past to get in my flat.
 
teuchter said:
Sure.

I've got a friend who lives just off Electric Avenue and I know the problems they have there. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be removed form residential streets in Central Brixton, just that letting them stay in public spaces should maybe be tolerated instead of moving them into quiet streets, where, if something does kick off there will be less people around to intervene.

I'd much rather be confronted by an agitated crack addict where there are other people around than when I'm on my own on my street. And I don't see a big problem with them using the Peace Gardens, for example, at night - no-one else wants to go in there and no-one needs to walk through there to get home.

Also your point about disrupting the market for dealers - fair enough but dealers and users are different problems to some extent, aren't they? Would be possible to move dealers on without necessarily dispersing users as well.

The trouble is that the public areas you are talking about - specifically outside the Ritzy and Windrush Square - provide the best marketplace for dealers. Also, they have several routes of escape of the police make an appearance and residential streets - Rushcroft, Saltoun etc - to complete the deals once a customer has made contact with a dealer.
 
RushcroftRoader said:
The trouble is that the public areas you are talking about - specifically outside the Ritzy and Windrush Square - provide the best marketplace for dealers. Also, they have several routes of escape of the police make an appearance and residential streets - Rushcroft, Saltoun etc - to complete the deals once a customer has made contact with a dealer.

But the point I was making was that dealers and users are not necessarily the same people - fair enough move the dealers on (if they are really a problem) but that doesn't mean you have to also move on the users.
 
teuchter said:
But the point I was making was that dealers and users are not necessarily the same people - fair enough move the dealers on (if they are really a problem) but that doesn't mean you have to also move on the users.

In my experience when Rushcroft was under seige, the deal would be made and the use would get out his crack pipe in the nearest dark doorway.
From what the police tell me, crack users (who cause most of the issues)congregate at an agreed spot and wait for the dealer to arrive. The dealer is only there for a matter of minutes, making it hard for the police to nick the people that matter.
 
RushcroftRoader said:
In my experience when Rushcroft was under seige, the deal would be made and the use would get out his crack pipe in the nearest dark doorway.
From what the police tell me, crack users (who cause most of the issues)congregate at an agreed spot and wait for the dealer to arrive. The dealer is only there for a matter of minutes, making it hard for the police to nick the people that matter.

that's what's happening next door to me at the moment i think. Sometimes there are people just hanging around, but looking like they're waiting. Other times it's clearly after the deal has been done and the crack pipes are out.

Maybe it would be sensible to pay more attention, and if it seems people are waiting let the police know straight away (if you can manage to get through to the right people at the right time). in theory they could then be there at the right time - if they can someone to attend in time.
 
RushcroftRoader said:
Well you did ask for suggestions! I will take my "Daily Mail" type of response and not darken your thread anymore.
Maybe you should go out with a tray of tea and biscuits and ask the dealers if they would kindly consider moving orf up the street a little way.


Catching up with this thread. Excuse me for answering posts sequentially...




You may find this a crazy attitude, Rushcroftroader, but I have had decent dealings with some of the people who congregate in my street, including their leaving politely and saying thank you when I told them the police were on the way. I don't confront them, they don't confront me. The one time things have become dodgy was when one of my housemates dealt with things confrontationally; I managed to calm things down and even got a handshake from the guy.

I don't have a problem with them as people. I have a problem with them abusing my front door step. Going by your previous postings on other threads, I'm guessing that you will be shaking your head in puzzlement or snorting in derision at this attitude.

While I recognise that I might be unlucky and catch a blade one day, I also recognise that dealers and users are people. They are human beings, like me and like you.
 
Blagsta said:
Call Lambeth DAT ask if you can pass a message to Lambeth Service Users Group. They may be able to communicate a message to users about not leaving sharps around etc. Probably won't work, but worth a shot maybe?


Cheers Blagsta.

It's rocks mostly, so no sharps... so far anyway. We had a period of time when there were sharps about in the street, but those users either never used my front step, or never left their trash behind. At any rate, we were never bothered by them.

But I will get in touch with the DAT - good idea.
 
teuchter said:
To be fair, neither does the police moving them on, really.

You did ask for suggestions, and the only suggestions that are going to help your situation are ones that involve moving the users somewhere else, which doesn't address the underlying problem likee you say.

Personally, I think I would rather that these people are congregating somewhere in central Brixton, be it Windrush Square or the Peace Gardens, than hanging about in residential streets.

It seems that the whole dispersal zone thing is more about making the problem look like it's gone away rather than actually solving it.


Absolutely agree with you teuchter.

I wasn't saying "Please move them on". My OP was asking "What's to be done?", as an open question. Moving them on clearly does not work, is no solution. If they were to be moved on from my street, the problem would merely migrate to another street. I would be happier, but someone else would be less happy.

Having said that, I am selfish enough to prefer the problem to be elsewhere....

So far as I know, there is no drop in centre or other unit in Brixton where users might go to find help. There ought to be. Someone with more knowledge might put me right on this?


I alos entirely agree with you that things were better and less intrusive when they gathered on Windrush Square. I know some people found them intimidating, but I never felt uneasy crossing Windrush Square, even very late at night.

Also, when the drinking club used to gather outside the library, I was strongly aware that they were a community, that they knew who was coming and going, and that, to some degee at least, their presence was a deterrent.

As for the dispersal zone thing - well it was clear from the start that it would simply move the problem rather than solve it. I believe such tactics were initially inspired by Guilliani's Zero Tolerance campaign in NY. NY is now safer, but the suburbs are now much less safe.
 
teuchter said:
Sure.

I've got a friend who lives just off Electric Avenue and I know the problems they have there. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be removed form residential streets in Central Brixton, just that letting them stay in public spaces should maybe be tolerated instead of moving them into quiet streets, where, if something does kick off there will be less people around to intervene.

I'd much rather be confronted by an agitated crack addict where there are other people around than when I'm on my own on my street. And I don't see a big problem with them using the Peace Gardens, for example, at night - no-one else wants to go in there and no-one needs to walk through there to get home.

Also your point about disrupting the market for dealers - fair enough but dealers and users are different problems to some extent, aren't they? Would be possible to move dealers on without necessarily dispersing users as well.


Teuchter talks sense.





And also what Spark says.
 
Blagsta said:
Where is the dispersal zone?


Not sure were it ends, but it includes Windrush Square, Rushcroft Road, Saltoun Road, and Kellet Road.

I've seen dealers openly selling their wares behind St Matthews - even greeted me cheerily as I passed - so it does not, apparently, include that area...
 
story said:
I don't confront them, they don't confront me.
If that is achievable (i.e. the situation isn't at a point where some sort of confrontation / conflict is inevitable) then that is the ideal.

Communication in confrontation / conflict situations is NOT easy. Communication in non-confrontation / non-conflict situations is far easier ... and may well prevent a confrontation / conflict happening later or, if it does, provide some foundation on which to build a resolution.
 
detective-boy said:
If that is achievable (i.e. the situation isn't at a point where some sort of confrontation / conflict is inevitable) then that is the ideal.

Communication in confrontation / conflict situations is NOT easy. Communication in non-confrontation / non-conflict situations is far easier ... and may well prevent a confrontation / conflict happening later or, if it does, provide some foundation on which to build a resolution.


...which is why I have tried to keep things as non-confrontational as possible. I'm aware that I have glass windows, that my garden could be trampled, that the one time someone took a shit, it was not vandalism but because they'd been caught short... I don't want to make enemies of people who are disenfranchised, and already have little respect for me and my property.
 
story said:
Catching up with this thread. Excuse me for answering posts sequentially...




You may find this a crazy attitude, Rushcroftroader, but I have had decent dealings with some of the people who congregate in my street, including their leaving politely and saying thank you when I told them the police were on the way. I don't confront them, they don't confront me. The one time things have become dodgy was when one of my housemates dealt with things confrontationally; I managed to calm things down and even got a handshake from the guy.

I don't have a problem with them as people. I have a problem with them abusing my front door step. Going by your previous postings on other threads, I'm guessing that you will be shaking your head in puzzlement or snorting in derision at this attitude.

While I recognise that I might be unlucky and catch a blade one day, I also recognise that dealers and users are people. They are human beings, like me and like you.


Priceless. Mate, you asked for suggestions, I gave one in good faith. Please don't assume you know anything about me. I have had in the past exactly the same problem as you have now. FYI my attitude was much the same as yours. In my experience these guys are rarely aggressive. If you only knew how far away I am from what you rather predictably descirbe as a "daily mail" reader.
I think you are more in risk of getting an injury falling off your high horse than getting stabbed.
 
I didn't describe you as a Daily Mail reader, RushcroftRoader. I said

It's a Daily Mail reader type of response, in my opinion.

That's not directed at your person, and it has two qualifiers.


Any assumptions I may have made about you are based - as I made clear - on your postings. I am fully aware that I may be very wrong. As I said in the earlier post, I was only guessing.

Be that as it may, I have also said thank you several times for replies to this thread. I thank you again for your suggestion. I gave my reasons ealrier for deciding not to take up the suggestion of a large bright movement sensitive light. It's a personal choice, allow me that.

I also declined other suggestions, such as a sprinkler system, fake dog turds, and (from the chap on the phone) building a six foot wall.

As for the high horse attitude... well I don't recall ever being accused of that before, at least not in my hearing. I'll bear it in mind. Thanks for the heads up on that.
 
I accept that I was remiss in not thanking you for your other posts, which were informative and help to fill in the picture for me a bit.

So, thank you for those :)
 
Mad as it sounds, can you find the most annoying song or tune, and have it play, not loud, just enough for the users and dealers to hear, over and over and over again.
I havent thought of how it could be done, without yourselves hearing it and being annyed. Maybe some box with an opening to accoustically torture the lives out of them, guantanamo style/ You could record the song on a cd through your pc, and copy it till it fills the CD. Toddlers video songs spring to mind.

On a not so mad note, so far, the thread makes good points about communication, but who to?
Somewhere for the dealers and users to go, where no one elses lives are badly affected.
The council, the press (in a friendly way)

Whoever it is, write to them, big them up, and state how you know how important it is for them to be seen in a good light. Tell them how the problem is something which could negatively affect them too, and how you trust they will do something which makes everyone happy.
Makeit so they want what you do.
Sorry for not knowing who to write to, or what exactly to say, but I think the above keeps the goal in sight and may help the problem on its path to being sorted that bit quicker.
 
impludo said:
Mad as it sounds, can you find the most annoying song or tune, and have it play, not loud, just enough for the users and dealers to hear, over and over and over again.
I have often wondered if the "classical music" tactic (when people blast classical music from their windows to make loitering yobs go away) could be rolled-out accross the whole of Brixton via megaphones installed on lamp-posts.
 
poster342002 said:
I have often wondered if the "classical music" tactic (when people blast classical music from their windows to make loitering yobs go away) could be rolled-out accross the whole of Brixton via megaphones installed on lamp-posts.
Only if we can hack the system and make it play Ride Of The Valkyries.
 
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