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Reality TV photography competition on Channel 4

I agree that digital photography & Internet galleries have broken down a lot of barriers, but I don't see anything like the same kind of, if you'll pardon the expression, "whoring for attention" from men as I do from women.

More correctly, I see similar symptoms but differently expressed. There's plenty of men out there desperate for attention, but they usually have to try and get it by taking good photos, dazzling with their intellect, cracking jokes, whatever... and even then they're often not very succesful. Whereas due to our different biological wiring, if a woman so much as shows a bit of flesh or a provocative pose then she's likely to find herself inundated with positive comments. I've seen a lot of this on Flickr, where mediocre but provocative self-portraits by young women regularly attract ten times as many comments as less salacious pictures from the best photographers, and also on social networking sites such as Myspace and Facebook, where a sexy-looking avatar is an instant shortcut to dozens of new male friends.
 
dansumption said:
I agree that digital photography & Internet galleries have broken down a lot of barriers, but I don't see anything like the same kind of, if you'll pardon the expression, "whoring for attention" from men as I do from women...

I'm not so sure. Agree with you in essence, although I'm noticing far more clean, fun loving, home boy images getting the vote from woman. Personally, I just see a floppy haired tosser and don't even bother to look at the guys photographs, but apparently many, many women do and praise the crap :confused:
 
guerilla_girls_naked_met_mid.jpg
 
dansumption said:
More correctly, I see similar symptoms but differently expressed. There's plenty of men out there desperate for attention, but they usually have to try and get it by taking good photos, dazzling with their intellect, cracking jokes, whatever... and even then they're often not very succesful. Whereas due to our different biological wiring, if a woman so much as shows a bit of flesh or a provocative pose then she's likely to find herself inundated with positive comments. I've seen a lot of this on Flickr, where mediocre but provocative self-portraits by young women regularly attract ten times as many comments as less salacious pictures from the best photographers, and also on social networking sites such as Myspace and Facebook, where a sexy-looking avatar is an instant shortcut to dozens of new male friends.

You sound like you're denying that women are capable of producing good art work and men have to work harder to get recognised. Women are more likely to be exploited becuase of their gender than a man. Women will never get the same recognition as men in our life time. Just because a woman is going to get more attention / praise does not make that praise positive, quite the opposite.
 
firky said:
You sound like you're denying that women are capable of producing good art work and men have to work harder to get recognised.

Don't talk shit. I wasn't talking about art, just about the increasingly desperate attention-seeking tactics of the younger generation.

But I do agree that men have to work harder to get recognised, inasmuch as they can't just get recognised by pouting seductively (although as Stanley pointed out that too is changing).

On the other hand, as per the Guerilla Girls poster, women have to work harder to get recognised for anything other than the fact that they're a woman and therefore potential sex object.

The first type of "getting recognised", the type that comes from pulling your blouse down, is probably not the type that will get you very far in the art world.
 
I see you edited your post. Yes, I agree, "just because a woman is going to get more attention / praise does not make that praise positive", as should be obvious from reading my earlier posts.
 
dansumption said:
Don't talk shit. I wasn't talking about art, just about the increasingly desperate attention-seeking tactics of the younger generation.

That's the feeling I got from your post.

But I do agree that men have to work harder to get recognised, inasmuch as they can't just get recognised by pouting seductively (although as Stanley pointed out that too is changing).

That isn't recognition as such though, which is the entire point of the GGs. It is sexualisation a very different thing.

On the other hand, as per the Guerilla Girls poster, women have to work harder to get recognised for anything other than the fact that they're a woman and therefore potential sex object.

Agreed - although there is positive discrimination too.

The first type of "getting recognised", the type that comes from pulling your blouse down, is probably not the type that will get you very far in the art world.

Really? What about Sarah Lucas? She is vulgar and overtly sexual with a twist.

One of the principal themes in her work is a confrontation with traditional female roles and identities. She explores the ambiguities in her own attitudes and those of others (men as well as women) towards sexual objectification and desire. One of the ways she does this is by making physical and literal representations of vernacular terms for bodies, focusing, in particular, on sexual body parts and their connection to foods. She presents an identity which challenges stereotypical representations of gender and sexuality. Posing simultaneously as tough and abject, macho but female, she creates an image of defiant femininity.:

higgins1-29-12.jpg
 
Dan sat had a drink of Tea with me last night we are plotting our own reality TV show? no being serious we are talking about a joint showing of our works, and Dan is a friend also a teacher who i have infanate amount of respect towords and we talked over this post.. Seems he has got home inspired and ranted a little more since we hugged each other good night, now i agree with him on what he has said..

Also i did not realise the time constraints of people involved, this said if you desire something you work for it no matter the limited time.. All of this said i looked againe at the prog from my download and it is rather shit..
 
Stanley Edwards said:
No idea why he's so surprised. It was only a couple of months ago he was slagging off the members of his own Flickr fan base for being cliché imitators.

He's a really decent chap.:D :D :D
 
I went to a panel discussion a couple of months ago where Brian Griffin (who was at college with Martin Parr) was on the panel. He was talking about portfolio reviews, and said that by-and-large reviewers are too afraid of giving offence. He said "there are only two people in the UK who will give you an honest opinion on your photos, and that's me and Martin Parr".
 
dansumption said:
... He said "there are only two people in the UK who will give you an honest opinion on your photos, and that's me and Martin Parr".

He's obviously never heard about the U75 Critique thread.
 
I called Martin Parr a cunt and he took grave offence by it. Hypocritical fucker. He looks like an old Graham Norton too, the cunt.
 
firky said:
I called Martin Parr a cunt and he took grave offence by it.

I did the same to Griffin...but got £400 cash & a few years of work for doing so.:p

I pissed off Parr because Angus McBean rang up to speak to me once and didn't want to speak to him.:D
 
Johnny Hardstaff was the best, he came into the class and looked around and spotted me and said, "what you doing here?" hahaha. Everyone was gobsmacked that I am mates with a semi-famous producer / film maker / designer / media bod.
 
Wanted to reply to this earlier, but knew it would get long-winded and I'd run out of time...

firky said:
That's the feeling I got from your post.
It certainly wasn't intended to convey that feeling, and apologies if it did.

I think I muddied the debate a little, because we were originally talking about art photography (or at least wannabe art photography) inasmuch as the TV series sells itself as a way for photographers to break through into the gallery world. johey24 then asked "What is it with these people and the self-portraits ... is it merely egocentric or is it social paranoia..." and I went off at a bit of a tangent talking about the increasing trend for young women to get involved in self-portraiture.

Although I didn't make this clear, I was talking about this more as a social phenomena than as an art world phenomena. There is a slight link, in that many of the women posting self-portraits think they are being arty, in the same way that many of the people applying to be on Picture This think they are being arty. (I realise this could easily develop into a conversation on "arty" vs. "Art", which is something I could also say a lot about, but won't on this thread). But basically I was talking about the broader phenomena of young women photographing themselves, from the level of Flickr amateurs looking for positive comments on their photography down to Myspace flirts looking for more "adds".

firky said:
That isn't recognition as such though, which is the entire point of the GGs. It is sexualisation a very different thing.
Again, I should have made it clear that I wasn't specifically referring to art-world recognition, in fact "attention" would have been a better word than recognition. The type of self-portraiture I'm talking about is attention-seeking, and in that respect it is successful in that it gets attention. Yes, sexualised attention rather than the adulation of art critics, but still... attention.

I have a feeling that there are also some parallels that can be drawn between this sort of behaviour and self-harm, but as this is a forum post rather than a lengthy academic paper I won't pursue that avenue any further, other than to say this is just stuff I've noticed in my work with young people and in my travels on the Internet. It's only my personal theories, but I feel that there's at least an element of truth to it.

Also, regarding Stanley's objections, I'm still pretty certain that this is mainly a female.... not sure what word to use here: "obesession" is too strong a word, "pursuit" too weak. Anyway, I do think there's a gender imbalance. For example, look at the most "relevant" results when you search Flickr for self-portrait groups:
http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?q=self-portrait

I also want to make it absolutely clear that I'm not seeking to blame/accuse/criticise women for behaving in this way. Bleeding-heart liberal that I am, I'm convinced that "society" is to blame. In an earlier post, I used the word "affluenza", a slightly inaccurate buzzword which I intended to stand in for something like this: our capitalist society makes it very hard for people to find a sense of self-worth from within themselves and their own abilities. Various distorted achievements have become short-hand for success in the modern world: money, fame, power and beauty. Of these, the latter is the only one most young women can easily attain, and so it's hardly surprising that large numbers of them take advantage of the Internet to say "Look at me! Look at me! Aren't I beautiful?"

And given the rather basic wiring that joins the male brain and reproductive system, it's hardly surprising that large numbers of people reply "YES! YES! you are!"

firky said:
Really? What about Sarah Lucas? She is vulgar and overtly sexual with a twist.

Rather embarrassingly, I don't know a lot of Sarah Lucas's work (although I once met and photographed her at a Cork Street gallery opening. She seemed really nice - we were both very drunk though, and didn't talk much art. I also really liked her wank lorry at the 2006 Frieze art fair). I think she's very pertinent to the discussion though, not as an example of the phenomena I was talking about, but as somebody who understands and comments upon it.

Perhaps more relevant though is Tracey Emin. For years, I thought of Tracey as rather a poor artist, somebody whose work was theraputic for her, but too personal to be of much relevance to anyone else. Over the last few years though (and for exactly the reasons described above) I've revised this opinion. I now think she thoroughly deserves her status as Britain's most iconic contemporary artist.

Tracey really is everywoman: her need for attention, her sexual misadventures, her self-harm, self-hatred and self-esteem problems are (again in my experience) a true portrait of the nation's younger (teenage & early 20s) women.
 
dansumption said:
Wanted to reply to this earlier, but knew it would get long-winded and I'd run out of time...


It certainly wasn't intended to convey that feeling, and apologies if it did.

I think I muddied the debate a little, because we were originally talking about art photography (or at least wannabe art photography) inasmuch as the TV series sells itself as a way for photographers to break through into the gallery world. johey24 then asked "What is it with these people and the self-portraits ... is it merely egocentric or is it social paranoia..." and I went off at a bit of a tangent talking about the increasing trend for young women to get involved in self-portraiture.

Although I didn't make this clear, I was talking about this more as a social phenomena than as an art world phenomena. There is a slight link, in that many of the women posting self-portraits think they are being arty, in the same way that many of the people applying to be on Picture This think they are being arty. (I realise this could easily develop into a conversation on "arty" vs. "Art", which is something I could also say a lot about, but won't on this thread). But basically I was talking about the broader phenomena of young women photographing themselves, from the level of Flickr amateurs looking for positive comments on their photography down to Myspace flirts looking for more "adds".


Again, I should have made it clear that I wasn't specifically referring to art-world recognition, in fact "attention" would have been a better word than recognition. The type of self-portraiture I'm talking about is attention-seeking, and in that respect it is successful in that it gets attention. Yes, sexualised attention rather than the adulation of art critics, but still... attention.

I have a feeling that there are also some parallels that can be drawn between this sort of behaviour and self-harm, but as this is a forum post rather than a lengthy academic paper I won't pursue that avenue any further, other than to say this is just stuff I've noticed in my work with young people and in my travels on the Internet. It's only my personal theories, but I feel that there's at least an element of truth to it.

Also, regarding Stanley's objections, I'm still pretty certain that this is mainly a female.... not sure what word to use here: "obesession" is too strong a word, "pursuit" too weak. Anyway, I do think there's a gender imbalance. For example, look at the most "relevant" results when you search Flickr for self-portrait groups:
http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?q=self-portrait

I also want to make it absolutely clear that I'm not seeking to blame/accuse/criticise women for behaving in this way. Bleeding-heart liberal that I am, I'm convinced that "society" is to blame. In an earlier post, I used the word "affluenza", a slightly inaccurate buzzword which I intended to stand in for something like this: our capitalist society makes it very hard for people to find a sense of self-worth from within themselves and their own abilities. Various distorted achievements have become short-hand for success in the modern world: money, fame, power and beauty. Of these, the latter is the only one most young women can easily attain, and so it's hardly surprising that large numbers of them take advantage of the Internet to say "Look at me! Look at me! Aren't I beautiful?"

And given the rather basic wiring that joins the male brain and reproductive system, it's hardly surprising that large numbers of people reply "YES! YES! you are!"



Rather embarrassingly, I don't know a lot of Sarah Lucas's work (although I once met and photographed her at a Cork Street gallery opening. She seemed really nice - we were both very drunk though, and didn't talk much art. I also really liked her wank lorry at the 2006 Frieze art fair). I think she's very pertinent to the discussion though, not as an example of the phenomena I was talking about, but as somebody who understands and comments upon it.

Perhaps more relevant though is Tracey Emin. For years, I thought of Tracey as rather a poor artist, somebody whose work was theraputic for her, but too personal to be of much relevance to anyone else. Over the last few years though (and for exactly the reasons described above) I've revised this opinion. I now think she thoroughly deserves her status as Britain's most iconic contemporary artist.

Tracey really is everywoman: her need for attention, her sexual misadventures, her self-harm, self-hatred and self-esteem problems are (again in my experience) a true portrait of the nation's younger (teenage & early 20s) women.


Anyone care?
 
boskysquelch said:
I did the same to Griffin...but got £400 cash & a few years of work for doing so.:p

I love Brian Griffin. First saw him talk at a BJP seminar just over a year ago. He was introduced as "Britain's greatest living portrait photographer". I'd never heard of him, and wondered why.

Spent the subsequent year reading up on his work, and growing to love it more and more. His recent exhibition at Kings Cross/St Pancras (which was shamefully under-promoted) is probably the only photography exhibition where I've found myself laughing uncontrollably.

The day after the panel discussion where Brian said he was one of Britain's only honest reviewers, I had a portfolio review with him. I was shitting myself. In the event, his comments were very positive, and I had a really lovely time chatting to him. The event organiser later contacted me to let me know that Brian flagged my portfolio up as the most promising work he'd seen all day :)
 
Stanley Edwards said:
Anyone care?
Tracey Emin, perhaps? Sarah Lucas? I certainly do.

Anyone care that Britain has one of the highest rates of childhood depression and suicide worldwide?

Nah, fuck that miserable shit! We just want to take photos!
 
Danshotme is only one part of the story - that's my "brain dump" of photos, I also have a portfolio site which is more considered but a lot more out-of-date, and a Flickr site which is somewhere between the two - a more considered brain-dump. Both are linked from Danshotme though.
 
dansumption said:
Danshotme is only one part of the story - that's my "brain dump" of photos, I also have a portfolio site which is more considered but a lot more out-of-date, and a Flickr site which is somewhere between the two - a more considered brain-dump. Both are linked from Danshotme though.

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Stanley Edwards said:
No idea why he's so surprised. It was only a couple of months ago he was slagging off the members of his own Flickr fan base for being cliché imitators.

Excerpt from Martin Parr's post in the Flickr group "Martin Parr We Love You" (cut and pasted, my bolds)

"This is the undoing of so much Flickr work, the authors , by the very nature of joining, demonstrate the fact that they want to be seen as photogrphers, and this dear reader, is often their down fall."

Fair enough point!

Another one regarding Flickr:

"But I cannot recall seeing a set of work that would make a stunning book. Before you all bite my head off and tell me that you are all geniuses, you have to remember that there are over 1000 books of new work published every year and most of these tend to disappear after publication.The quality of this published work is high, but it is difficult to achieve the uniqueness that will assure you of a place in photo history.

It is a tough world out there, and I think that Flickr has a great contribution to make, but still feel it is unlikely that the next big photo star will come from this source."


From The Observer
Martin Parr, the acclaimed photographer who is a judge on the show, told The Observer: 'The people they ended up with, I was slightly surprised the quality wasn't better. They [Picture This contestants] were further down the ability spectrum than you'd expect.'


:D
 
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