kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
And this is the differenec between reality and truth - truth is perception.
reality and truth
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And this is the differenec between reality and truth - truth is perception.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
s.norbury said:
My personal reality, or reality generally?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
My earliest memory is from about 3 1/2 years old so that's when I date my conscious reality as starting.
Reality started at the begining of the (this?) universe.
Reality started at the begining of the (this?) universe.
No.kyser_soze said:
Because I am a dog and the tools that I use to apprehend reality are different enough from those you use, as to render any agreement virtually impossible. The way we each apprehend and interpret "the universe" means that my description of it will appear like madness to you, and vice versa.
In my world, "olfactory reality" is objective - but you simply don't have the tools/senses to understand how differently reality appears to me and I'm not smart enough (a tool) to comprehend your world.
But if you (humanity) cease to be. Then there is only my (and other animals) reality.
Woof
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Does the apple exists whether I'm human or a dog?
Yes it does. Therefore there is a physicality outside of my and your perception.
Incidentally - I do have the tools to understand how your perceived reality is different from mine, it would just take a few alterations to my ability to process smell and cope with reduced visual capacity. It wouldn't appear as 'madness' with my brain, but human reality would to yours because it's not evolved to interpret physical reality in the same way.
Yes it does. Therefore there is a physicality outside of my and your perception.
Incidentally - I do have the tools to understand how your perceived reality is different from mine, it would just take a few alterations to my ability to process smell and cope with reduced visual capacity. It wouldn't appear as 'madness' with my brain, but human reality would to yours because it's not evolved to interpret physical reality in the same way.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Jessiedog said:And had humans never existed, then then any such interpretation would not exist.
Woof
But the universe - reality - still would. There would still be an earth.
Fucks sake - this is the tree in a forest argument making a noise debate.
No.kyser_soze said:
Because if humanity never existed neither would any kind of human "reality" - that is impossible.
And if there is no human "reality" and yet something still "exists" (the universe), then some other "interpretation" or "appreciation" of that universe must be closer to "reality", because "reality" would only exist within the context of the experience of that which apprehends and interperets said experience.
To put it another way.
If you suddenly saw everyone else around you behaving veeeeeeeery strangely - sniffing everything in sight, including arses - you'd probably think everyone had gone completely nuts. I on the other hand would be ecstatic to realise that these humans could finally smell "properly" and that I was gonna have the upper hand, at least for quite a while, as they learned to appreciate and interpret this new tool - a tool, remember, that is now so sensitive that it overwhelmingly dominates all their other senses to the extent that it renders NOT focussing on it and upon learning to use it as the main tool in life, virtually impossible.
Woof
Your right, of course, I do seem to be putting forward a variation on the "falling tree" argument.
But I still think it's an interesting variation.
I'm here for general exploration as well as to discover the "truth", you know. I want to know why as well.
Can you smell an individual tree among a forest from a mile away and know roughly when it will fall, BTW?
And if I CAN'T smell it, will it still fall?
Woof
But I still think it's an interesting variation.
I'm here for general exploration as well as to discover the "truth", you know. I want to know why as well.
Can you smell an individual tree among a forest from a mile away and know roughly when it will fall, BTW?
And if I CAN'T smell it, will it still fall?
Woof
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So you as a human (drop this dog bollocks - you're a human being with human perceptions) don't actually believe that you came from a pre-existing reality, one that was entirely independent of your presence and was getting on comlpetely well without you there to question the objective and absolute nature of it's existance?
How I, you or a dog perceive reality through our senses and interpretation is irrelevant to reality itself - it is there if we are or not.
How I, you or a dog perceive reality through our senses and interpretation is irrelevant to reality itself - it is there if we are or not.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Jessiedog said:Your right, of course, I do seem to be putting forward a variation on the "falling tree" argument.
But I still think it's an interesting variation.
I'm here for general exploration as well as to discover the "truth", you know. I want to know why as well.
Can you smell an individual tree among a forest from a mile away and know roughly when it will fall, BTW?
And if I CAN'T smell it, will it still fall?
Woof
Yeah, and as with that argument the tree will still disturb the air in a way that were I there it would make a noise.
Love it.kyser_soze said:
It's the dogs bollocks!
As a human I believe I come from a pre-existing "human" reality, entirely independent of my presence.
I'm postulating that it may be possible that this pre-existing reality may be dependent upon humans having existed.
I'm just typing my Saturday evening musings, over a wine and smoke. Good excercise for the brain after a week of stress.
Hmmmmmm.
Woof
OK.kyser_soze said:
I get your point, I've argued it a million times myself. I was just trying on the (an)other hat, really.
But even if some "stuff" happens, "reality" and "truth" for most humans will depend upon interpretation. Look how far humanity has gone by way of explaining things, creating things, in a few hundred years. Who is to say that our current explanations will not be subject to further quantum leaps, such as those that Einsteinian thinking catalysed?
And anyway, my wibbling was initiated in response to and in the context of fela's postulations. As much a bit of stuff for him to digest, to see how it pertained to the veracity of his own ideas - another perspective, an alternative view - as anything else.
But I seem to have got rather carried away with things.
Oh well.
All in good faith.
Woof
kyser_soze said:
I see this thread's moved on since my last visit, but kyser mate, i have to reply to this before i move on.
Truth quite simply is not a concept. So any animal, if it could think, and it can't, would not have any concept of truth, as you say.
Truth is not a concept, nor is it a human construct. It is a timeless thing that even babies subscribe to. It is simply the here and now. You think, and you're out of it. Stop thinking, and you're in it...
kyser_soze said:
No. It is the opposite of bollocks. Humans can deal with their reality or they can be in truth. They often do not know when they're in the one or the other.
Truth is absolutely, definitively, irreversibly nothing to do with humans per se.
It is simply what happens happens, what is is.
The only doubt i have at this juncture is what reality is. That's why i started this thread.
But, either way, i'm most glad it's got folk thinking!
Jessiedog said:
Ah look mate, i've been on a good saturday night out, but i can't let this pass.
Truth has nothing to do with perception. So even if birds or oceans can perceive things (which i don't believe they can), it matters not. What they actually do is quite simply the truth.
When humans do human things, then the truth is happening.
I reiterate: when we think, we're in reality, and out of truth. When we don't think, we're in truth.
Maybe action is truth, thinking is reality...
[you and your bloody dogs!]
Jessiedog said:Yes.
If "truth" is a construct (and I think I think it is), then it will depend entirely upon who (or what) is constructing it.
Woof
Oh man! Truth is nothing to do with being a human construct. Saying true things may be, but truth is something that completely subsumes humanity. It is far larger than our species.
Jessiedog said:"Reality", in the sense that you mean, only exists if humanity exists.
In the absence of humanity, who can say what is "reality"?
Woof
Ha!! Exactly! Reality is a human thing, coz when we think, we have reality.
When we don't think, we're in truth.
Animals, trees, flowers, the sun, the moon, the oceans, the rivers, none of them think, so they are truth.
An aside that I thought might amuse you, jd: I have two dogs, a Wiemeraner and a Labrador. Very faithful dogs they are at my side constantly when I am home. At night, when they get interested in something outside and want to go check it out they'll get up, walk around, wag their tails, smile, look at the door until I open the door. Often they'll stand in the doorway just sniffing, before running out.Jessiedog said:If you suddenly saw everyone else around you behaving veeeeeeeery strangely - sniffing everything in sight, including arses - you'd probably think everyone had gone completely nuts. I on the other hand would be ecstatic to realise that these humans could finally smell "properly" and that I was gonna have the upper hand, at least for quite a while, as they learned to appreciate and interpret this new tool - a tool, remember, that is now so sensitive that it overwhelmingly dominates all their other senses to the extent that it renders NOT focussing on it and upon learning to use it as the main tool in life, virtually impossible.
Woof
Sometimes for fun I'll get my head down with them and look outside and visibly sniff. The Weimeraner especially will glance at me, giving me the feeling that she thinks, "finally!, bobohead smells it too!", and she looks all delighted and serious (as opposed to a dopey smiley face) as she focuses in on the smelling again before darting out the door. She seems to treat my doggie action as a sign of respect and acknowledgment, and seems well pleased.
(The Lab is often already out the door; the Weimy pauses first and tries to get me interested so I'll come too. Yes, world of non-dog lovers, I really am that goofey with them!)
Really connecting and communicating with dogs can be so easy (and so rewarding) when one gets away from the verbal and instead focuses in on gesture. Another way of saying it is I'm getting into their reality a bit, and when I do we thoroughly connect. Dogs are actually quite articulate!
