ReacTogon - chain reactive performance arpeggiator!!

[pk]

http://controllerism.com/

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2008/02/17/controllerism/

http://www.wiretotheear.com/2007/11/30/to-perform-live-with-controllers-controllerism/

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/10/22/djs-advocate-controllerism/

 

[Dravinian]

I give up, I really do.

If you can't see the basic difference between a physical instrument, and a mouse/screen then this whole conversation is pointless.

really there's no point in guitars, drums, violins, trumpets or mandolins, you could make the same sound on a computer

The problem is you are both equating THIS singular example with every thing else.

Please show me how a guitar, drums, violins, trumpets or mandolins are in anyway related to this instrument.

Are there any strings to fret, no.
Are there any things to hit, no.
Are there any valves to blow in, no.

What you have is a plastic table which you place a block on and that block will direct an electronic signal that you have aboslutely no control over once it is sent, from one block to another in the direction the block indicates.

The faders themselves are not physical devices. You place your hand over a section of the table and move your hand to raise or lower the faders.

You have absolutely no reason to lay a physical finger on this machine to "play" it, it could entirely be done with software with absolutely no loss musical accomplishment.

If your argument Beesonthewhatnow is basically that it is a huge toy and therefore more fun to 'play with' then it would be as software, ok, that is not the impression I got from your posts, but it may be what you mean, then sure, as a big toy it is certainly more fun to touch it.

As a means to making music, it would have been entirely the same as a piece of software.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Dear god, you still don't get it.

Another example.

I can use a copy of BFD to create drum tracks in my studio, the results are often better than I would get from recording a real kit, as I don't have a good sounding room to record drums in, nor the £1000s of pounds worth of drums they sampled to make BFD to actually record.

This does not mean that I'd get a drummer to play with a laptop on stage at a gig. And if I stuck a drummer in front of said laptop in my studio they'd rightfully tell me to fuck off.

It's about interaction with an instrument, it's about performance and feel.

Got it yet?

 

[Dravinian]

Dear god, you still don't get it.

Another example.

I can use a copy of BFD to create drum tracks in my studio, the results are often better than I would get from recording a real kit, as I don't have a good sounding room to record drums in, nor the £1000s of pounds worth of drums they sampled to make BFD to actually record.

This does not mean that I'd get a drummer to play with a laptop on stage at a gig. And if I stuck a drummer in front of said laptop in my studio they'd rightfully tell me to fuck off.

It's about interaction with an instrument, it's about performance and feel.

Got it yet?

My entire point to you is that this machine is in no way more user friendly in terms of playability as a 'real' item then it would be as software. You have not shown in anyway how this PARTICULAR "instrument" is more playable as a real item then it would be as a piece of software on a laptop. You can't compare it to things that are not like that, and claim that the idea is wrong.

Your argument here is like arguing that it is better to play on a 'real' piano with real strings in it, then it is to play on an electronic keyboard...and it has nothing to do with sound, it is all about playability. It makes no sense, since the electronic keyboard is just as playable as the piano, esp the good ones that come with footpedals.

My argument, for the third time of repeating, is that this instrument offers nothing more in terms of playabilty as a physical machine then it would as a piece of software.

Don't keep repeating your argument when I have told you I understand it and have in fact refuted it. Answer the reply. oh and stop comparing it to other things, we are talking about this arppegiatior, but despite me saying to you several times...what has that got to do with this arppegiator, you keep coming back to making your examples using OTHER instruments.

If you can't make your example using THIS arppegiator, then surely your argument is incorrect?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Your argument here is like arguing that it is better to play on a 'real' piano with real strings in it, then it is to play on an electronic keyboard...and it has nothing to do with sound, it is all about playability. It makes no sense, since the electronic keyboard is just as playable as the piano, esp the good ones that come with footpedals.

Oh dear.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Are you seriously trying to say these will give the same playing experience?

 

[Dravinian]

I did not say the 'experience' would be the same.

We are talking about whether A PARTICULAR INSTRUMENT has more playability as a real item then it would have as a piece of software.

Can you show how the piece of equipment in question is more playable then it would be in software terms.

Not a guitar. Not a set of drums. Not a piano. Not a violin. Not a trumpet. Not a mixing desk.

This arppegiator. which we are discussing.

Can you do that, without refering to a different instrument, that I never said would be better on a laptop?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I'd still maintain CD decks sound tinny next to vinyl. I put it down to low end resonance in the needles adding to the dynamics of the sound.

Not to mention the 20 20 cut off they have to cut out aliasing. We might not be able to hear beyond that range but harmonics outside affect tones within the audio spectrum. This, along with the low sampling rate of CD make they sound a bit metalic and tinny.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Can you show how the piece of equipment in question is more playable then it would be in software terms

You can touch it. You manipulate the blocks with your hands. It's there, in front of you, all big and shiney. You are directly involved with the process, you're a part of it.

It's about feeling.

I don't understand how any musician can think otherwise

 

[pk]

Not to mention the 20 20 cut off they have to cut out aliasing. We might not be able to hear beyond that range but harmonics outside affect tones within the audio spectrum. This, along with the low sampling rate of CD make they sound a bit metalic and tinny.

Precisamondo!

CD's are chopping the sound up and kicking out the <> 20/20 range, vinyl is just, organic, like audio itself, vibrations, not zeros and ones.

Besides, I've played enough rigs to know I'm right.

 

[Dravinian]

You can touch it. You manipulate the blocks with your hands. It's there, in front of you, all big and shiney. You are directly involved with the process, you're a part of it.

It's about feeling.

I don't understand how any musician can think otherwise

The reason that a musical instrument like the one I play has a 'feel' is because you can change everything, how hard you hit the string, how hard you fret the string, how still your finger is, where it is exactly within the fret, whether you use a plectrum or fingers, whether you use nails or flesh, whether you strum or fingerpick...etc etc

You are talking about how you put a block, in a hexagon.

After you have done that, you can no longer manipulate the way the sound is created, you can manipulate the output, but you can't manipulate the way the sound is created.

How does that require you to have a feel?

As I said, if you want it as a toy, then sure feel is important, if you want it to create music, it would have been better software.

 

[pk]

As I said, if you want it as a toy, then sure feel is important, if you want it to create music, it would have been better software.

But the machines are toys.

 

[xenon]

The reason that a musical instrument like the one I play has a 'feel' is because you can change everything, how hard you hit the string, how hard you fret the string, how still your finger is, where it is exactly within the fret, whether you use a plectrum or fingers, whether you use nails or flesh, whether you strum or fingerpick...etc etc

You are talking about how you put a block, in a hexagon.

After you have done that, you can no longer manipulate the way the sound is created, you can manipulate the output, but you can't manipulate the way the sound is created.

How does that require you to have a feel?

As I said, if you want it as a toy, then sure feel is important, if you want it to create music, it would have been better software.

Have you ever used a control surface when working with audio software? Sure it's just manipulating numbers with a physical control, the same way using a mouse is. But even just ergonomically, you have more control over a fader or nob than a mouse. It's quicker to grab several controls rather than use the QWERTY keyboard or click different controls on the screen. Just more intuitive. it gives you that perception of being closer in control over what you're hearing. And well, it's more fun frankly.

 

[Dravinian]

Have you ever used a control surface when working with audio software? Sure it's just manipulating numbers with a physical control, the same way using a mouse is. But even just ergonomically, you have more control over a fader or nob than a mouse. It's quicker to grab several controls rather than use the QWERTY keyboard or click different controls on the screen. Just more intuitive. it gives you that perception of being closer in control over what you're hearing. And well, it's more fun frankly.

Bear in mind we are talking about a particular instrument. Did you watch the video?

The faders are not physical objects, there is nothing to touch or hold, you simply place your hand over the appropriate place and move your hand to effect the faders....looking at the video, they don't look very accurate, and they seemed to have a slight delay.

Nothing about this instrument, wouldn't really have been better as software. There is no feel to this instrument, because it lacks anything to give it a feel. Placing blocks on a table, using faders that have no physical presence.

I just didn't see anything on this particular instrument that was made better by it being a table.....as a musical instrument. As a toy, as something to mess about with sure, more fun in the flesh, but as a means to creating music, it doesn't have anything that requires it to be a physical object.

 

[xenon]

Bear in mind we are talking about a particular instrument. Did you watch the video?

The faders are not physical objects, there is nothing to touch or hold, you simply place your hand over the appropriate place and move your hand to effect the faders....looking at the video, they don't look very accurate, and they seemed to have a slight delay.

Nothing about this instrument, wouldn't really have been better as software. There is no feel to this instrument, because it lacks anything to give it a feel. Placing blocks on a table, using faders that have no physical presence.

I just didn't see anything on this particular instrument that was made better by it being a table.....as a musical instrument. As a toy, as something to mess about with sure, more fun in the flesh, but as a means to creating music, it doesn't have anything that requires it to be a physical object.

I see what you mean. But I think it's just an extention of using the physical interface to generate sound. Annalagus to a mouse or lightpen perhaps. (if that doesn't sound too wanky.) It's the psychology of it, rather than having an actual physical connection to the sounds you're making.

I'd have to try it though, to see if it gave you that allbeit simulated, sence of controlling the sound with objects. Might be disappointing. But yeah, as a guitarist, it's not gonna compare to playing a well setup guitar. There's no physics and annalogue forces to be mannipulated.