RAF doc refuses to go to Iraq

[Bob_the_lost]

What Bob and Mike seem to be saying is that he should subordinate his views and change of mind for the sake of the state and the army. He should be a good lad and keep a stiff upper lip! Frankly thats a load of bollocks. As an individual he has the right to change his mind whenever he wants and should be supported for doing so. Some seem to forget to whom the rules are written for the advantage of..........

No, that if he's doing it for "morality" then it's a bit bloody late. If he thought the war was illegal when he was sent out the first time then he should have resigned. He didn't need any reports from Goldsmith etc. That would have been the right thing to do the first time he was sent out. The same action should be taken now if he feels he's being asked to do something abhorrent.

It's not going to be about personal fear, he's a medic, they don't get shot at all that much.

Army law broken - BAD

Miltary law, or airforce law perhaps but army law?

 

[nino_savatte]

Miltary law, or airforce law perhaps but army law?

Does it matter? International law has been violated but none of this seems important to you or Mike Mcc. There are serious implications here for those who willingly participate in something that is blatantly illegal.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Does it matter? International law has been violated but none of this seems important to you or Mike Mcc. There are serious implications here for those who willingly participate in something that is blatantly illegal.

But why hasn't he resigned his commision then? He is allowed to do that in this situation.

 

[nino_savatte]

But why hasn't he resigned his commision then? He is allowed to do that in this situation.

You will have to ask him that but I suspect he is making a principled stand and he is doing that within the armed services...that takes guts imo. Resigning his commission would be a surrender of those principles.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

You will have to ask him that but I suspect he is making a principled stand and he is doing that within the armed services...that takes guts imo. Resigning his commission would be a surrender of those principles.

What principles would he be surrendering exactly?

 

[nino_savatte]

What principles would he be surrendering exactly?

It's time to use your brain, bob, I'm not here to spoon feed you.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

It's time to use your brain, bob, I'm not here to spoon feed you.

Ok then, guess we'll never know.

If he wanted to make a principled stand he should resign.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ok then, guess we'll never know.

If he wanted to make a principled stand he should resign.

A greater impact can be made whilst still serving. I know that is somewhat difficult to comprehend. If you want to know why he is doing what he is doing then the article is the best place to look.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

A greater impact can be made whilst still serving. I know that is somewhat difficult to comprehend. If you want to know why he is doing what he is doing then the article is the best place to look.

What greater impact? He'll be sent to military prison and then discharged from the air force.

Still unsure as to what principles he would be surrendering if he were to resign. The article doesn't say.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whether the Iraq war is illegal is immaterial - if it is, then why haven't Bush and Blair been indited?

Because the UK criminal justice system has very little workable legislation pertaining to crimes by the state.

The defense of dis-regarding illegal orders is used to prevent men being ordered to carry out blatently illegal orders - committing murder, theft, rape, etc.

Also to prevent trhem being compelled to carry out orders against their religious convictions.

I would have respect for the guy if he had resigned his commission on the basis of his stance on the Iraq War, but for whatever reason he didn't do that. This leaft him in clear contravention of the laws governing the Armed Forces (I don't know which one it is for the RAF, the Army is covered by the Army Act 1955)

Perhaps he's made a rational assessment of the state of laws pertaining to his situation and has decided to us his situation to force reconsideration of those laws? You never know, some people are motivated by altruism as well as by self-interest.

 

[FreddyB]

This thread for hwat it's worth wouldn't exist if he simply resigned.

He may think that the counrty needs armed forces which he feels he wants to be part of but that those forces should not be used to pursue illegal imperialistic adventures.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

This thread for hwat it's worth wouldn't exist if he simply resigned.

He may think that the counrty needs armed forces which he feels he wants to be part of but that those forces should not be used to pursue illegal imperialistic adventures.

I think it could/would, a decorated medic resigning his commision because he thought the war was illegal?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What greater impact? He'll be sent to military prison and then discharged from the air force.

And he'll be tried by a military court, which means his case enters the military record, which means that any decisions pertaining to his case can be used as precedents for subsequent rulings and legislative amendments. It means that law as it stands can/may be clarified as to the extent of its' reach.
Pretty much the same as the civilian legal system, everything is built on precedent and interpretation.

 

[nino_savatte]

What greater impact? He'll be sent to military prison and then discharged from the air force.

Still unsure as to what principles he would be surrendering if he were to resign. The article doesn't say.

1. Refer to VP's post for an answer to your first question
2. I shall paint you a picture: he is against the war because of its questionable legality. It is obvious that this is a stand he has taken on principle.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

1. Refer to VP's post for an answer to your first question
2. I shall paint you a picture: he is against the war because of its questionable legality. It is obvious that this is a stand he has taken on principle.

So by making a stand by resigning he would not surrendering anything at all.

I'll be very surprised if the Court Martial establishes any new precedents btw.

 

[nino_savatte]

So by making a stand by resigning he would not surrendering anything at all.

I'll be very surprised if the Court Martial establishes any new precedents btw.

Not sure what you're saying here, bob. You'll need to clarify your first point.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Not sure what you're saying here, bob. You'll need to clarify your first point.

The temptation to tell you to use your brain is intense, but i'll overcome.

By refusing to go to iraq and resigning his commision he would still have been able to object to the war and refuse to take part in it further.

 

[nino_savatte]

The temptation to tell you to use your brain is intense, but i'll overcome.

By refusing to go to iraq and resigning his commision he would still have been able to object to the war and refuse to take part in it further.

I know what you were saying bob, but you simply aren't quick enough. It's obvious that you take a particular ideological position on this that is based on a strict, rigid interpretation of military law..and perhaps the notions of cameraderie that the military is meant to engender in its members (in other words, you see him as a 'traitor' and a disgrace to the uniform but don't have the guts to say it, or you are simply playing games). If you can't understand that, I'm sorry but as usual you are using this as an opportunity to get up to your usual tricks.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I know what you were saying bob, but you simply aren't quick enough. It's obvious that you take a particular ideological position on this that is based on a strict, rigid interpretation of military law..and perhaps the notions of cameraderie that the military is meant to engender in its members (in other words, you see him as a 'traitor' and a disgrace to the uniform but don't have the guts to say it, or you are simply playing games). If you can't understand that, I'm sorry but as usual you are using this as an opportunity to get up to your usual tricks.

I see, i'm only disagreing with you because i'm indoctrinated.

Gotcha, so why doesn't he resign, why are you avoiding the points i have raised?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Gotcha, so why doesn't he resign, why are you avoiding the points i have raised?

Why should he resign?, maybe he wants to be a medic but doesn't want to obey illegal orders?

 

[nino_savatte]

I see, i'm only disagreing with you because i'm indoctrinated.

Gotcha, so why doesn't he resign, why are you avoiding the points i have raised?

You're trying that "why are you avoiding the points i have raised?" mullarkey again. You've tried that before and in case you didn't understand the first time: I dealt with your points.

Nice little superiority complex you have there, shame it's tempered with so much inadequacy.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Why should he resign?, maybe he wants to be a medic but doesn't want to obey illegal orders?

He wants to be a doctor? Fine, last i heard you don't lose your medical liscense for resigning from the military.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

You're trying that "why are you avoiding the points i have raised?" mullarkey again. You've tried that before and in case you didn't understand the first time: I dealt with your points.

Nice little superiority complex you have there, shame it's tempered with so much inadequacy.

Oh i see, there was no point to your post other than a little personal abuse then.

 

[exosculate]

No, that if he's doing it for "morality" then it's a bit bloody late. If he thought the war was illegal when he was sent out the first time then he should have resigned. He didn't need any reports from Goldsmith etc. That would have been the right thing to do the first time he was sent out. The same action should be taken now if he feels he's being asked to do something abhorrent.

It's not going to be about personal fear, he's a medic, they don't get shot at all that much.


Miltary law, or airforce law perhaps but army law?

What a laughable response.

 

[newharper]

Echoes here.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1018-21.htm

and the blog of letters.

http://www.traprockpeace.org/benderman_blog/

"The rules of Conscientious Objection have changed. In this day, a Conscientious Objector must be aggressive in defense of peace, and must rely on his own integrity and moral principles when many around him dare to call him coward.

Sgt. Benderman’s command would like people to believe that because he chose to no longer participate in this war, that made him a coward, and it made him unpatriotic"

"On July 27, 2005, Sgt. Kevin Benderman was found guilty of Missing Movement and sentenced to 15 months confinement, loss of pay and dishonorable discharge. In actuality, Sgt. Benderman’s crime was daring to tell the truth, and daring to challenge the very philosophy of the military machine in which he had volunteered to serve, by filing for Conscientious Objection"

My guess is that we'll see much more of this.

 

[Jazzz]

Good luck to this guy, let's hope there will be more like him. Be very interesting to see what happens. Didn't the Katherine Gun case collapse before Goldsmith's initial advice would have had to have been revealed?

Also, ain't there some bollocks on this thread.

Bob the Lost - you do seem 'lost' here. Why should this doctor give up his job - serving his country - because a war criminal, Tony Blair, continues to ask him to carry out illegal acts? It is clear in my mind which of the two needs resign.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So by making a stand by resigning he would not surrendering anything at all.

I'll be very surprised if the Court Martial establishes any new precedents btw.

Whether you would be surprised or not (you appear awfully jaded for a callow youth btw) is immaterial. The decision of the court is what matters, not your assumptions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He wants to be a doctor? Fine, last i heard you don't lose your medical liscense for resigning from the military.

Which again avoids the point that he just may be making an altrusitic stand.

If you don't know what the word means, then look it up.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Which again avoids the point that he just may be making an altrusitic stand.

If you don't know what the word means, then look it up.

He might, but since i think it is the wrong thing to do i will remain unimpressed.

 

[Jazzz]

His profession is that of a doctor; his job is in the army. I repeat - why need he give up his job, if he has done nothing wrong?