Danny Rose
New Member
Do you have any proof of this?
Radio 4: "A Rage In Dalston" - post-war anti-fascists
- Thread starter FridgeMagnet
- Start date
Do you have any proof of this?
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I found their efforts quite inspiring and long live their memory.
I don't need to waste my time with some kind of critical analysis, all I care about is that some Jewish war veterans got together and knocked some Nazis about, that's good enough for me.
I don't need to waste my time with some kind of critical analysis, all I care about is that some Jewish war veterans got together and knocked some Nazis about, that's good enough for me.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I've been bothered by your posts for a while. I am very sorry if I get you wrong but here is my take on what's bothered me and led me to think your political persuasions might be considered 'interesting'-
* Attacking militant anti-fascism on several occasions
* Posting mainly on BNP or Israel threads
* Anti-Israel (not a problem with me, just when it gets put together with your other posts) describing some Jews as nazis
* Saying people don't care about holocaust denial (again maybe you're right, but the gist of it...)
Hopefully I am just misguided and you're just worried about the BNP which is fair enough.
so hang on .. why is there a no criticism call here? we critise rightly the CP for NOT mobilising properly for Cable Street .. so why can we not criticise with hindsight the tactics of this group?
and i have NOT said i am against people doing what they did .. what i do say is it does NOT defeat fascism
look i accept it must seem tight having a go at the 43 group .. but just cos they did the right thing in attacking the BUF it does not make their politics any better .. our enemies enemy is not neccessaryly our friend to paraphrase Shamir when asked why he supportted the fascist and nazis in the war
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...stern+gang+mussolini&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk
"Stern was one of the Revisionists who felt that the Zionists, and the Jews, had betrayed Mussolini and not the reverse. Zionism had to show the Axis that they were serious, by coming into direct military conflict with Britain, so that the totalitarians could see a potential military advantage in allying themselves with Zionism. To win, Stern argued, they had to ally themselves with the Fascists and Nazis alike: one could not deal with a Petliura or a Mussolini and then draw back from a Hitler.
Did Yitzhak Yzertinsky – Rabbi Shamir – to use his underground nom de guerre, now the Foreign Minister of Israel, know of his movement’s proposed confederation with Adolf Hitler? In recent years the wartime activities of the Stern Gang have been thoroughly researched by one of the youths who joined it in the post-war period, when it was no longer pro-Nazi. Baruch Nadel is absolutely certain that Yzertinsky-Shamir was fully aware of Stern’s plan: “They all knew about it.” [9]"
the stern gang and irgun took part in many attacks on arabs etc
http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=1653
http://www.left-wing.net/history/deiryassin.htm
"Amongest the most violent of the militias on the Jewish side was a group known as the Stern Gang. This group was named after its founder and former leader, Avraham Stern who was a Fascist. Stern was a young-man during the rise of Fascism in Italy. He was a admirer of Mussolini and wanted to create a Jewish-Fascist State modeled on that which Mussolini had created in Italy.
In line with Fascism, Stern and the Stern Gang believed that all which mattered in society was force, power and conquest."
"Beckman's book is a history of the 43 Group. As such, it consistently underestimates the contribution of the rest of the anti-fascist movement. What he misses is the way that, at the local level, without much official co-ordination and despite all number of political differences, the effect of the combined activity of the Jewish and working-class anti-fascists was the same as if the two wings had been consciously working together. In the local areas, the 43 Group would turn over fascist platforms, while the local Trades Council and the Communist Party would organise petitioning and anti-fascist demonstrations. What the fascist speakers experienced was a single anti-fascist opposition. One arm of the movement won the local community to the politics of anti-fascism, while the other arm attacked fascist street meetings. Both, together, made it more and more difficult for the Mosleyites to hold a simple public meeting. And Beckman's failure to see anti-fascism as a whole may explain the gap in chronology, between mid-1947 and early 1949. The effect of the heroic-but-elitist tactics of the 43 Group was to compel the fascists groups to centralise their resources: there was no point having meetings of 15 in every borough of London, if each of these meetings was going to be successfully disrupted. Thus, at exactly the time that the Union Movement was being formed in late 1947, so the size of the very largest fascist meetings increased: at Ridley Road, for example, the numbers attending rose from about 700 in early September, to about 3000, one month later. However, these meetings grew because the Union Movement was pulling in its entire support from all over London, and closing its smaller meetings in other areas: in autumn and winter 1947, the fascists held street meetings in fourteen London boroughs; by spring 1948, they were only holding meetings in three or four areas. In other words, the success of the 43 Group in closing down small meetings, forced the fascists to rely on large meetings; which the group could not disrupt. The 43 Group's success (and the fascist response to this success) led to a change which made the group appear almost redundant. However, by concentrating its resources, the Union Movement was actually weakening itself, and undermining its own future. The change reduced the number of new people that the fascists could relate to politically. At large meetings of 2000 or 30000 people, the Mosleyites could address much the same people each week. What they could not do is build a large new audience. The shift also made the Movement's own political weakness more obvious. And this objective weakness seems to have been experienced by onlookers in terms of the lack of quality of the fascists' leadership"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/mere_pseud_mag_ed/History/Renton1.htm
http://members.lycos.co.uk/mere_pseud_mag_ed/History/Renton1.htm
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Got to be carfeul with Renton though mate - he's always looking for an angle to press home that the ANL/UAF method is the only non-elitist and effective anti-fascist srtrategy, despite it being pro-staus quo.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Wtf are you on about? No, seriously, did you actually read my post? No, you didn't. You made some cheap comment about the 43 Group being ineffective...or words to that effect.
Check out the Jewish Chron files for 1949/50, the paper was full of letters attacking the antics of the 43 Group.
Danny Rose
New Member
You'll have to do better than that. You made the allegation of corruption. You come back here with the proof positive to back your allegations. Otherwise I'll just have to conclude that its all bullshit.
I'll have a look at the files of the Jewish Chronicle when I get the time, but by 49/50 the 43 Group were in the process of disbanding. They were nowhere near as active as they had been in previous years, so your assertion that the paper was full of letters attacking their antics at a time when they were actually winding down makes no sense.
Legal and medical expenses were no longer required in such large sums, because the fash were on the retreat, and in addition, there were a number of quite wealthy Jewish businessmen who could be relied upon to chip in with a couple of hundred quid whenever required. So I don't really see why there would be a need to 'tax' local shopkeepers to 'keep their campaign going' when in fact the decision to wind down the campaign was already being discussed.
And what about your assertion that the fascists were still marching around the East End in large numbers after the 43 Group disbanded? Where is the proof of that, or do I have to check out the files of some other obscure newspaper.
it is sad and ironic that those who condemn the creation of israel do not understand that the BUF of the time were at Ridley Road in dalston ( and other jewish areas) as they were shit stirring against 'the jews' who they identified with the pre israeli fighters attacking and killing british soldiers at that time whiole creating israel ..
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
That's a rather selectivised version of events, durutti.
tell me what was the BUF's campaign at the time then then nino?
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/features/century/cbf.php?include=page5
"The fascists were also helped by a brief revival in antisemitism after 1945. Following the bomb attacks on the Kind David Hotel and the killing of the two British sergeants at Netanya, there were large anti-Jewish riots in August 1947 in Liverpool, Eccles, Salford and Manchester, and smaller incidents in Plymouth, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Devonport and Newcastle upon Tyne."
and they did such a good job???and fascism is not now at its biggest in europe than since before the war???43 group? good fighters .. not great politics ..
if you are after east end jewish political porn Joe Jacobs 'Out of the Ghetto' is far far far more interesting and relevent
http://www.play.com/Books/Books/6-/...e+Jacobs&searchtype=bookauthor&searchsource=0
http://www.labournet.net/events/9910/ghetto.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Ghetto-...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209049532&sr=1-4
bllllllloooooodddddyyyyyyy llllliiiibbbbbeeeeerrrrrraaaalllll.
Anyway...yeah joe jacobs book is good too. But i dont think it has to be either/or, it can be both...
and i know weve argued on this a few times over the years....i reckon that you do need to fight fire with fire at times....
But i agree with you to a point about building a political alternative taking them on in debate....a kind of durruti inspired fire brigade....
I think the jewish43 were an inspiring group...part of politics for me has always been about gang mentality and being in the right mob.....
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
cantsin
Well-Known Member
" middle class , conservative jewish newspaper in attacks on militant working class streetfighters shocker"
timewasting twonk
i want to defeat fascism .. the 43 group tactics do not defeat fascism .. though they can have a part to play .. in their case it is complicated by the fact that many of them were nationalists and some even supporters of a jewish fascism of that time ..Only if you tell me what your underlying rationale is for bringing this up.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
so what do you disagree with that i say?Aye, right, in a pig's eye.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I may as well be talking to a brick wall as talk to you. You make no sense most of the time and here, you bring up a massive irrelevance and what for? So that you can control the discussion? My, what a massive ego you have (pity you lack the brain power to match the size of your ego).
nino .. you are NOT involved in anti fascism .. in fact you are not involved in politics at all afaik so maybe that explains why you do not understand why someone like me would criticise the 43 group as i do anti fa and as i do UAF .. please respond to what i actually say if you want a more in depth reply from me .. i still am not sure where you disagree with me
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What the fuck are you talking about? You're having a completely different conversation to the rest of us. You have the cheek to sit there and make claims about me when you come out with the half-baked rubbish that you do? What is your fucking problem? I know what it is: you're trying to cover up for your lack of reading and you despise anyone who dares to show you up for the dissembling, evasive (and ultimately thick) weasel that you are.
You aren't involved in politics either. I only have your word for that. As far as you're concerned this is all a question of "whose dad is bigger than the other's dad" Grow up, you sad prick.
As for me "not being involved in anti-fascism", you might want to think about that...but you don't think, you aren't capable of thought.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What is this thread about, durutti? Does it exist for the sake of your massive but, ultimately empty, ego?
You might want to have another read of the OP.
You might want to have another read of the OP.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Let's look at this post again, shall we?
And your 'tactics' have helped to limit fash influence? I think not and you are arrogant to claim that you and you alone, have the solutions or know what is best for the rest of us. As for the 43 Group, I should like to see some evidence for your bizarre assertions.
And your 'tactics' have helped to limit fash influence? I think not and you are arrogant to claim that you and you alone, have the solutions or know what is best for the rest of us. As for the 43 Group, I should like to see some evidence for your bizarre assertions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
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JimW
支那暗杀团
Sad news; good long innings well played though.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
His book on the 43 Group was republished a couple of years back:
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/in...oks/world-war-2-books/the-43-group-25340.html
(also as an e-book if that is your thing)
http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/in...oks/world-war-2-books/the-43-group-25340.html
(also as an e-book if that is your thing)
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Really sad news; Morris Beckman author of the 43 Group book has recently passed away !
http://uaf.org.uk/2015/06/morris-beckman-antifascist-fighter-1921-2015/
R.I.P.
http://uaf.org.uk/2015/06/morris-beckman-antifascist-fighter-1921-2015/
R.I.P.
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